Divinity.

I don't understand why this talent is downplayed so much. Yeah, MTs are overhealed all the time. But, we spec AD because it's there when it counts. I think this is a similar talent. On difficult content I'm not always going to be completely topped off. In fact, there might be periods where I'm bouncing around in the mid-range, under heavy fire, for a few seconds for whatever reason. An incoming heal that is 5% more effective and brings my health a little higher could easily be what prevents the next hit from killing me. Hots are going to tick for more. A heal that might have underhealed me a bit might top me off, letting my healer(s) throw a heal somewhere else or save some mana. There are just tons of little examples like this, it's not always just "tank is always kept topped off or he dies."

(1) Divinity is such a weak healing talent that most sensible Holy Paladins will skip it.

(2) We have better things to get, that actually mater for our role. There's a defence for 3/5 just to get deeper in the tree, but you should be collecting mitigation or TPS talents. That's your actual job.

(3) We're already the easiest tank to heal due to block-cap + built-in 6% healing bonus.

(4) No other tank has a +heal received talent.

Basically: If Divinity was seriously useful, no other tank could tank. Therefore, content will be tuned such that Divinity isn't useful for prot.

Knaughty wrote:(4) No other tank has a +heal received talent.

Blood dks have one (+ one on cd)

The "minor" difference is that the dks' one is 10% for 2 points (and with the added bonus of keeping blood presence self-healing in frost presence).....And compared to that,5% for 5 points is quite weak ^^'

Anyway,blood tanking is more based on "healing-mitigation" so it works better there than it could for us

A heal that might have underhealed me a bit might top me off, letting my healer(s) throw a heal somewhere else or save some mana.

One of the main problems is that divinity saves no time/mana for our healers.If they need to chain heal to keep you alive,they'll need to keep chain heal even with that 5% bonus,so it wont make any difference

We really needed another "Divinity is good, why doesn't anyone appreciate it?" thread.

It's all been said before, but now that down ranking is removed, healers are either hitting you with really big heals, a lot of which goes to overhealing. +Healing these days is primarily so that AOE heals and DoTs will be a little more effective, not so that you can keep the tank up easier.

does divinty affect JoL ? I dont tend to run with a reti and as such its always my job to keep light up at all times, now in aoe damage heavy fights surly a extra 3% (i would only put in 3 points max) is worth it considering the other options we have to do just to get up the talent tree ?

If not then 2 imp hammer and 1 divine sac will be the way i plan to go.

Fenris wrote:

Knaughty wrote:(4) No other tank has a +heal received talent.

Blood dks have one (+ one on cd)

The "minor" difference is that the dks' one is 10% for 2 points (and with the added bonus of keeping blood presence self-healing in frost presence).....And compared to that,5% for 5 points is quite weak ^^'

Anyway,blood tanking is more based on "healing-mitigation" so it works better there than it could for us

Wrong~

Improved Blood Presence

Read: +healing only works while in Blood Presence.

As I think I mentioned before in the last Divinity thread, Divinity is designed to give Holy something to spend 5 points on to get deeper into the Prot tree for PVP. I think it's their attempt to make 51/20/0 more appealing than 37/0/34, but I don't see it happening until they move JotW too low for Holy to get it with any build for PVP.

Knaughty wrote:(1) Divinity is such a weak healing talent that most sensible Holy Paladins will skip it.

This is a fair argument, and it's true that it's quite weak.

Knaughty wrote:(2) We have better things to get, that actually mater for our role. There's a defence for 3/5 just to get deeper in the tree, but you should be collecting mitigation or TPS talents. That's your actual job.

Divinity will be the first thing I drop for TPS when I need TPS talents, but until I need them, I'll probably have Divinity.

Knaughty wrote:(3) We're already the easiest tank to heal due to block-cap + built-in 6% healing bonus.

We also have the lowest health, everyone gets that 6% healing bonus, and the majority of burst is magic (afaik that doesn't change in Ulduar). I don't think anyone outside the Tankadin forums will argue that Paladins are the easiest to heal.

Knaughty wrote:(4) No other tank has a +heal received talent.

Basically: If Divinity was seriously useful, no other tank could tank. Therefore, content will be tuned such that Divinity isn't useful for prot.

The same could be said for Ardent Defender, the block cap, etc. That doesn't make it a useless talent.

I'll probably take 5/5 Divinity until I need the points elsewhere. Is it a weak talent? Absolutely, but so is 2/4% more damage. Divinity is poorly designed and it perpetuates the idea that Paladins are trash tanks and not meant to tank "real things." Ultimately we're arguing over something that'll make no real difference either way, but I'll be taking the weak talent over the irrelevant one, at least until it becomes relevant.

5/5 is debatable, because if we're stretching every last bit of survivability imp LoH is probably better and it keeps us from getting that. It's all going to depend on the mechanics of the fights we see though.

Divinity is obviously not going to help healers save mana or anything like that. What it WILL do, potentially, is make it so an incoming heal (or combination of hots) brings us back to enough health so that the next hit doesn't kill us. In other words, like AD (but not nearly as good), it's a talent that has the potential to save our lives at a critical moment.

If you're overhealed 100% of the time, fine, you overgear the content, congratulations - that's not the situation we are worried about. On difficult content, tanks actually die, and div can prevent that.

The argument that a typical tank death is from burst damage is just as much in favor of div as it is against it, because that burst damage is never a one-shot, it's a hit --> UNDERHEAL --> death. The +healing isn't great but it's a hell of a lot better than some minor white damage that we don't need.