Talent priorities for 5-mans in 3.1

So dual spec is here and I've decided to hang up my Ret spec for a while and go with Holy and Prot to see how I like them (tanked for my casual guild through BC, never healed before). I'm a rather casual raider these days -- filling in the odd dps spot in 10s or 25s on weekends for guild or pug -- but figure most raids are going to have a solid tank corps, so my prot playtime will be mostly in heroics.

That said, I see a lot of discussion about the finer points of talent spec at the high-end raid level (good gear, progression fights), but not a lot about how the priorities change when there aren't so many buffs or other paladins around, and while wearing lower level gear (iLevel 200 blues and crafed/rep epics).

In particular I wonder about things like:

* Is going down Ret for Crusade (a) a waste because I could be getting more utility talents in prot; or (b) absolutely necessary because the dps I pug is probably going to be well-geared and trigger happy?

* Is 1/2 SA enough, given that I probably won't have replenishment, or int buffs all the time?

* Is Imp HoJ a good choice, given that there's more non-immune mobs in 5-mans? And is it better that Divine Guardian? (since there's every chance I won't have another paladin healing, the idea of more powerful SS on myself seems tempting).

* Other stuff that I haven't even considered

Right now I'm considering a fairly standard 0/53/18, focusing on utility with 3/3 HotC and 2/2 Imp Might, but looking for more insights before I commit.

rodos wrote:So dual spec is here and I've decided to hang up my Ret spec for a while and go with Holy and Prot to see how I like them (tanked for my casual guild through BC, never healed before). I'm a rather casual raider these days -- filling in the odd dps spot in 10s or 25s on weekends for guild or pug -- but figure most raids are going to have a solid tank corps, so my prot playtime will be mostly in heroics.

That said, I see a lot of discussion about the finer points of talent spec at the high-end raid level (good gear, progression fights), but not a lot about how the priorities change when there aren't so many buffs or other paladins around, and while wearing lower level gear (iLevel 200 blues and crafed/rep epics).

In particular I wonder about things like:

* Is going down Ret for Crusade (a) a waste because I could be getting more utility talents in prot; or (b) absolutely necessary because the dps I pug is probably going to be well-geared and trigger happy?

For 5mans, I would definitely spec into crusade since survivability isn't really a concern. You can still pick up imp hammer if you want, which is the only real "utility" that's not a part of your core tanking talents.

* Is 1/2 SA enough, given that I probably won't have replenishment, or int buffs all the time?

I'm spec'd 1/2 SA right now with one point hanging out to either put into SA or Crusade. I haven't run any heroics yet, but even on not hard-hitting stuff, like vault trash, I had zero problems with mana. I'm gonna give it another day or two, but I can't imagine any reason to spec 2 points into SA - I do plan on running a couple heroics just to see what it feels like in those, but from other poster's experiences, it sounds like 1/2 is more than enough.

* Is Imp HoJ a good choice, given that there's more non-immune mobs in 5-mans? And is it better that Divine Guardian? (since there's every chance I won't have another paladin healing, the idea of more powerful SS on myself seems tempting).

Divine Sacrifice probably has its most uses in 5mans than in raids since you don't risk killing yourself with it. I would say that imp hammer is probably more useful in 5mans than DG though, but they're both pretty marginal, and I'd just take whatever sounds like more fun to you.

* Other stuff that I haven't even considered

Right now I'm considering a fairly standard 0/53/18, focusing on utility with 3/3 HotC and 2/2 Imp Might, but looking for more insights before I commit.

I'd take HotC over imp might (in order to get both, you'd have to sacrifice a point from conviction) since it will benefit all DPSers rather than just melee. I also tend to see quite a few fury warriors in LFG and they can provide the AP buff themselves.

In the same boat as you rodos, pretty casual player anymore and won't be doing much more than an occasional PUG heroic here and there as time and my limited tanking experience/gear permits.

I too was wondering about the necessity of Divine Sacrifice/Guardian as 1) I'll probably forget to use DS most the time 2) I frequently forget I even have SS, let alone cast it on myself when its not up (I know, I know - bad pally, bad!), and 3) 20 second HoJ just seems really fun if for no other reason than to annoy the bejebus out of my buddy when we duel.

Any other thoughts as to the necessity of DS/DG for 5-mans?

I'm also in a similar position to the OP, but I'm still a few levels off from 80. I'm leveling this pally so that my small play group will have a tank. I plan to primarily run Heroics with the occasional hosting of a 10man pug. After stalking these boards over the last few months, I plan to spec 5/57/9 http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#sVZE0xAMuMusIufdxs:Gp0. I came to this decision mostly because I don't think I'll ever have any "best in slot" items that would cause me to split hairs and try to push my DPS/TPS with the standard 0/53/18 spec. I think this should be a fool proof spec for anyone interested in entry level tanking. Even though my mind is pretty set on the 5/57/9 spec, I would still love some feedback from the community if there is something I'm not taking into consideration and haven't planned for.

Thanks!

Post weekend update: With 1/2 SA I do OK. I just have to remember to pop DP when it's up.

Threat has also be a non-issue as there now seems to be a dps shortage and I've ended up running with all off-spec and alt dps. I did HoL with some guildies and topped the dps meter by a healthy margin*.

It's fun though, with everyone learning and not so much pressure. I think all in all dual spec is bringing more fun and a better sense of community to the game, with less people sidelined because groups are full, and more appreciation of the different roles.


*The ret pally (normally a healer) was sword-and-boarding because he had no 2-hander. Colossal Skull-clad Cleaver dropped. He was happy.