4.2 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

This guide is designed to provide the following:
-A basic description of the "core" tanking talents that should be in most tanking builds
-A brief discussion of the options we have for spending the remaining points
-Answers to commonly asked talent-related questions, with links to references for those seeking more detailed information.

Table of Contents

1. Talent Builds
   
   1. The Protection Core
   2. Discretionary Points
   3. The Leftovers
   4. Common Builds
2. Glyphs
3. Talent Details
4. FAQ
5. Changelog

Talent builds

I. The Protection Core
With 4.0 comes a significant restructuring of the talent trees and an increased degree of flexibility in how we spend them. The first step in any build is to put 31 points in the Protection tree.

There are 13 talents (25 points) that I would consider "essential" to be a successful raiding paladin. That means you have 6 "discretionary" points to spend in less essential talents to unlock the rest of the protection tree, and 10 points you can spend in any tree.

If you're coming here and just want to know "is my spec decent?" check against this core.....if you have all the talents here your spec is probably fine, if you don't it probably needs some work.

The Core:
Divinity (3)
Judgements of the Just (2)
Toughness (3)
Sanctuary (3)
Hammer of the Righteous (1)
Wrath of the Lightbringer (2)
Shield of the Righteous (1)
Grand Crusader (2)
Vindication (1)
Holy Shield (1)
Sacred Duty (2)
Shield of the Templar (3)
Ardent Defender (1)

For a discussion of what to do with those 6 "flavor" points in early protection, see the next section. If you're just interested in seeing some common builds, jump down to the "Common Builds" section.

II. Discretionary Points
To obtain all of the talents in the Core, you need to spend 6 points in the following manner:
2 in Tier 1
1 in Tier 4 or lower
3 in Tier 5 or lower

In Tier 1, you have the choice of Seals of the Pure or Eternal Glory. Don't be fooled here, the cooldown on Word of Glory means that Eternal Glory is just a mediocre DPS talent. Seals of the Pure is a significantly better value per point as long as you're using SoT. As a result, SotP is a far superior talent because it provides a larger overall DPS boost and does so in situations where you care about DPS (i.e., you're using SoT).

For the Tier 4 point, you have quite a few choices. You can obviously go back and fill Seals of the Pure or Eternal Glory. You also gain Improved Hammer of Justice from tier 2, which reduces the cooldown on your stun (useful for LK specs). In tier 3, we have Hallowed Ground, which is a weak single-target DPS increase but a fairly noticeable benefit when AoE tanking due to the mana reduction. However, neither of these are recommended, because in Tier 4 we add Reckoning to the mix. Reckoning is the largest single-target DPS increase available to you at this point.

Your choice here will likely depend on the content you're facing and your group composition. For single-target DPS, Reckoning is the strongest choice. For AoE Hallowed Ground has potential, but isn't necessary; for fight-specific "gimmick" specs Hammer of Justice is an option. Most people will fill out 1/2 Reckoning to move down the tree.

For the Tier 5 points, you add Guarded by the Light and Divine Guardian to the mix. The first point is just a minor increase to WoG healing, but the second point gives you a very useful overheal shield. Divine Guardian is an incredibly potent raid cooldown that can be game-breaking on some encounters. I think most players are best-served by picking up Divine Guardian and Guarded by the Light. They're both incredibly potent when used wisely, and your only other choices are all threat talents (Reckoning, Hallowed Ground, Eternal Glory) or gimmick/utility talents (Imp. HoJ).

III. The Leftovers
At 85, we have 10 more points we can spend in any tree. Here are the options in each category (Threat, Survivability, Utility).

• Threat:
  We can pick up threat increases from Arbiter of the Light and Judgements of the Pure in Holy or Eye for an Eye, Crusade, and Rule of Law in Retribution. We also have the option of going back and filling out Reckoning, Hallowed Ground, Seals of the Pure, Eternal Glory, or Grand Crusader in Protection. From best to worst, the order of these talents for raw DPS output against a single target is:
  
  Reckoning > Grand Crusader > Rule of Law / Crusade > Seals of the Pure > Judgements of the Pure > Arbiter of the Light > Hallowed Ground / Eye For an Eye / Eternal Glory
  
  or, in graphical form:
  
  Now you see why Sacred Duty and Wrath of the Lightbringer are "mandatory" talents. Those two talents alone combine for over 2000 DPS, or roughly 1/8 of our total output.
  
  Eye for an Eye deserves a special mention here. It seems to proc off of most spell-like attacks, regardless of damage type (even physical). Thus, depending on the boss, it can contribute anywhere from 1%-3% of your DPS completely passively. I personally value the utility of Improved Judgement too much to make that trade, but for those that don't E4E is a perfectly valid way to progress to tier 2 of Ret.
  
• Survivability:
  The only useful survivability talent in Holy is Last Word, which requires a 7-point investment, the first five of which are in weak threat talents. Rule of Law in retribution is also a survivability talent since it buffs Word of Glory's crit chance. And of course, if you chose not to fill in Guarded by the Light with your first 31 points, you could go back and do that. If you have the T13 2-piece bonus, Arbiter of the Light is a minor survivability boost, but it's not significant enough to make much of a difference. It's an option if you're willing to give up the run speed of Pursuit of Justice, though.
  
• Utility:
  For utility, we have Improved Judgement and Pursuit of Justice in Ret, and Improved Hammer of Justice in Prot. Improved Judgements is very nice, and gives us another ranged pick-up tool to work with. Pursuit of Justice is subject to the age-old run speed debate. Hammer is somewhat anemic for PvE now that we have Rebuke.

How you spend these 10 points is up to you - if you feel you need more threat, spend them in threat talents. If you want the utility of Imp. Judgement and Pursuit of Justice, grab those. If you feel like your healers need some help, grab Rule of Law.

I suspect that most people will be favoring Ret with their 10 points though. The second tier of Holy has almost nothing of value to us, while Crusade and Rule of Law are both very potent talents, and Pursuit of Justice has a devoted following. This also gives us access to the heaviest survivability build for current raid content, which is the Rule of Law "Default" build below.


IV. Common Builds

"Default" build:
(aka "Raiding" build)
http://www.wowhead.com/talent#sZGMhcRkdRRucbG

This build is what I expect to be the "generic" raiding spec for 4.2. In a raid environment, Vengeance frequently makes long-term threat irrelevant, so survivability and utility talents become higher priorities. This build grabs Guarded by the Light for the overheal bubble at the expense of one point in Reckoning. With the 10 out-of-spec points, it takes Improved Judgement for extra reach, Rule of Law for extra WoG power, and Pursuit of Justice for movement speed. Note that Crusade and Rule of Law are also both potent threat talents, especially in AoE, which is relevant to many raid encounters. A notable variation would be to take Eye for an Eye over Improved Judgement for extra DPS - that's mostly a judgement call you'll have to make individually based on your level of affinity for Improved Judgement.

"Heroic 5-man" build:
http://www.wowhead.com/talent#sZGMhfRddoMucbG

This build is tuned for an undergeared tank working through heroic 5-mans, especially Random Dungeons where you might get DPS that aren't patient. It trades a little bit of survivability in the form of GbtL and Divine Guardian for more threat via Reckoning and Hallowed Ground.

If you're mostly running heroic dungeons, this build should serve you very well. Hallowed Ground will give you peace of mind while using Consecration liberally, and the plethora of threat talents will compensate for the lack of Vengeance support. In 5-mans, you probably won't even miss Divine Guardian or the overheal bubble of the second point in Guarded by the Light.

However, note that as you move on to harder 5-mans (the Zul's, for example), your survivability will be stressed a lot more. As soon as you feel comfortable with threat, don't hesitate to switch back to the default build. Divine Guardian especially can make the difference between a kill and a wipe, and if your healer can't keep up that extra healing from Guarded by the Light can come in handy.

"Last Word" build:
http://www.wowhead.com/talent#sbhbZGMhcRddRRu0b

This is an alternative to the default that chooses to go for Last Word instead of RoL/PoJ in ret. It's not clear whether Last Word is better or worse than Rule of Law, and probably depends on how you tend to use WoG. Last Word is probably better for reactive "wogging," while Rule of Law is better for proactive wogging since it affects the overheal bubble provided by Guarded by the Light. For a special fight like Chimaeron, Last Word may be more attractive than usual. However, note that the Last Word spec comes at a significant single-target and aoe DPS premium because you lose Crusade and Rule of Law.

Heavy Threat build:
http://www.wowhead.com/talent#s0bZGMhfRddoMuf0h

For a more threat-heavy build, I expect people to shift points around to take all of the most efficient threat talents. This variation would drop Guarded by the Light and Divine Guardian to pick up Hallowed Ground and Reckoning. The version I've linked also gives up PoJ and Improved Judgement to pick up Eye for an Eye and 2/3 Judgements of the Pure. Arbiter of the Light and JotP are weak enough that this is still more efficient than taking those talents and skipping Rule of Law.


Theck's Advice:
In current raid content, threat is trivial past the first 30 seconds. Once you have a reasonable stack of Vengeance, you'll likely be mixing WoGs in every ~30-45 seconds to help mitigate damage spikes. Seal of Insight use has been slowly becoming less prevalent, as it's a pretty heavy DPS trade for a mostly-insignificant benefit. In any event, you really can't go wrong with the "default" build, since there aren't many compelling talents that it doesn't take.

In heroic 5-mans, threat becomes a slightly more significant concern, because we can't rely on Vengeance. However, the difference between the two specs is pretty minor at this point. Shifting one point from Reckoning to Guarded by the Light isn't going to change your threat all that significantly, and generally won't make the difference between succeeding and failing at a given boss encounter. For trash, the only significant change worth considering is whether to take Hallowed Ground for the increase in trash DPS/Threat. For someone chain-running heroics this might be a reasonable question to consider, though I'll note that Cons is completely unnecessary in heroics if you're using HotR (especially glyphed) properly.

Glyphs

In this section, I'm going to list each glyph along with a brief description and notes. To see recommended glyph set-ups, scroll to the bottom of the section.

Prime Glyphs:
We have a few very good Prime glyphs to choose from, but two (SoT and ShoR) stand out as head and shoulders above the rest for DPS. HotR is a solid choice for your third glyph to bolster your AoE threat.

Glyph of Crusader Strike (Threat, Optional) - This glyph is a simple DPS increase, but weak compared to ShoR/SoT. It's still our third-best single-target DPS glyph though, so it's a decent choice for your third if you don't want to use that final slot for utility.

Glyph of Exorcism (Threat, Not Recommended) - Again, a boring DPS increase on a spell we might cast once a fight (on the pull, maybe).

Glyph of Hammer of the Righteous (Threat, Recommended) - This is a great AoE glyph, and my recommendation for your third glyph slot in a general setup.

Glyph of Judgement (Threat, Optional) - This glyph turns out to be very weak for both threat and survivability. CS is a considerably stronger choice for single targets. That said, it's one of only a few survivability choices; if you're going whole hog for survivability, it's an option.

Glyph of Seal of Insight (Survivability, Optional) - It's entirely possible to run Seal of Insight while tanking current raid content, but it was far more common in the early, undergeared phase of early Cataclysm raiding. This glyph does not affect Seal of Insight itself (or other proc-based effects), only heals that you actively cast like WoG or Holy Radiance. Thus, the net effect of this this glyph is about half that of the WoG glyph, and only if you're running SoI.

Glyph of Seal of Truth (Threat, Recommended) - Seal of Truth is our best DPS glyph as long as we're using SoT. It's our second-best Prime glyph for single-target DPS until around 53 expertise without the glyph. That said, this is the glyph you'd swap out for SoI if you're going for heavy survivability.

Glyph of Shield of the Righteous (Threat, Recommended) - A DPS boost to our heavy-hitter, this is an excellent single-target glyph. Don't pass it up unless you're glyphing exclusively for AoE, or are using WoG as your primary HoPo dump.

Glyph of Word of Glory (Survivability, Optional) - The current raid content's emphasis on survivability makes this glyph a potent survivability alternative to Glyph of Shield of the Righteous. Much like the SoI/SoT glyphs, you should choose between the two "finisher" glyphs as appropriate for the content you're facing.


Major Glyphs:
Our major glyphs are rather lackluster. Focused Shield is the only one that stands out as a significant DPS increase, but it's a double-edged sword since it makes the ability much weaker in AoE situations, where we arguably need it more.

Glyph of the Ascetic Crusader (Utility, Optional) - This glyph just reduces the mana cost of CS, which is probably not necessary for single targets. It might help you sneak in a few more Consecrations though, so it's got a slight potential DPS increase.

Glyph of Consecration (Threat, Optional) - This glyph is a weak DPS increase against single targets. It's average for AoE fights, as it doesn't directly increase the DPS of Consecration but does increase it's damage per cast time (DPCT). For short fights where you'll only cast Consecration once, it's decent, for longer fights it's probably irrelevant.

Glyph of Dazing Shield (Utility, Optional) - If you want the daze back on your Avenger's Shield, this is the way you get it. Most of us don't care enough to want it back though, which makes this primarily a PvP glyph.

Glyph of Divine Protection (Utility/Survivability, Situational) - This glyph turns Divine Protection into a 40% damage reduction cooldown against magical sources but 0% against physical. This makes it very situational - it's great for fights where you have a frequent big-damage magical attack (or sequence of such attacks) to survive. Notable examples include heroic Nefarian (DP and the Baradin Hold trinket can be alternated to cover every Electrocute in phase 3), heroic Cho'gall (Fire elemental section) and heroic Conclave (Nezir's Permafrost). It's likely one you'll be swapping in and out fight to fight, so keep some dust handy.

Glyph of Divinity (Utility, Not Recommended) - This gives LoH an extra mana return component. Unfortunately, 10% of our mana isn't much, and we cast this once per fight at most. This glyph is thus fairly useless to us, it's better suited for Holy paladins.

Glyph of Focused Shield (Threat, Recommended) - This may be a Major glyph, but it's as potent as our Primes for single-target DPS/threat. The drawback is that you lose the bounces, so it's actually a DPS decrease against multiple targets. For boss tanking though, this glyph will likely be your first choice amongst the Majors.

Glyph of Hammer of Justice (Utility, Optional) - Extra range on HoJ is nice, but generally not game-changing for PvE.

Glyph of Hammer of Wrath (Utility, Optional) - The buff to Hammer of Wrath makes it a big part of our sub-20% rotation, but mana savings on it is not likely to be a big deal.

Glyph of Holy Wrath (Utility, Recommended) - Having an extra stun is always nice, and this glyph gives us an AoE stun against two things we'll see a lot of in Cataclysm. This is another one you might swap in and out from fight to fight.

Glyph of the Long Word (Survivability/Utility, Situational) - This turns Word of Glory into a combination Heal/HoT. It's not clear how this interacts with Guarded By the Light, but presumably the HoT portion is ignored and the absorb shield is just based on the direct heal component. Again, not something we would glyph all the time, but could be useful situationally.

Glyph of Salvation (Utility, Situational) - This glyph changes the behavior of Hand of Salv. It reduces a player's threat to 0 temporarily, but restores their actual threat at the end of the duration (essentially a short-term BoP without the "can't attack" portion). It's unclear whether they generate any threat while under the influence of the spell, however. Either way, it could be more powerful than our current HoSalv in certain situations.

Glyph of Lay on Hands (Utility, Optional) - This is now a major glyph as of 4.0.3. LoH is powerful enough that shaving three minutes off the cooldown is something to consider. However, for most boss fights you'll still only be able to use it once, making the glyph sort of weak. It might let you cast LoH once per wipe on progression content though, instead of every other fight because of cooldown lockout.


Minor Glyphs:

Our minor glyphs are about as boring as they get, they're all flat mana reductions on things we rarely cast in combat. Pick whichever three you like, until we get options worth discussing in more detail, I'm going to entirely ignore minor glyphs.

Glyph of Blessing of Kings
Glyph of Blessing of Might
Glyph of Insight
Glyph of Justice
Glyph of Righteousness

Theck's Recommendation:

For an all-purpose load out, I would recommend glyphing:
Prime: Seal of Truth, Shield of the Righteous, Hammer of the Righteous
Major: Pick your favorite three.

For a single-target DPS configuration, the recommendation is:
Prime: Seal of Truth, Shield of the Righteous, Crusader Strike
Major: Focused Shield, Consecration, whatever.

For a heavy-survival setup:
Prime: Seal of Truth/Insight (depending on which you plan on using), Word of Glory, Judgement
Major: Divine Protection (situationally for certain fights), whatever, whatever.

Talent Details

This section will provide a brief discussion of each talent available, sorted by tree and tier.

Protection

Tier 1:

Divinity - This talent has slimmed down a little since 3.3, gaining 1% healing and shedding two talent points. Given that we have fewer points, it's roughly equivalent to the old talent. However, with the new healing model in Cataclysm, this talent becomes much more powerful. The less overhealing you receive, the better Divinity is. Out of the options in tier 1, it's the best choice.

Seals of the Pure - A flat 12% increase to seal damage for 2 points. While they've reduced the proportion of our damage coming from seals, this is still the best threat increase in the first tier.

Eternal Glory - A 30% chance to consume 0 Holy Power when you cast Word of Glory was great before WoG gained a cooldown. Now it's just a very weak DPS talent. If you rarely ever tank with SoT, this might be worth having, but in most cases you're better off taking SotP.

Tier 2:
Judgements of the Just - Now much lower in the tree (and thus available to all three specs), JotJ is our version of every tank's attack speed debuff. The Seal of Justice effect is irrelevant to us, but the attack speed slow and lack of other attractive options in this tier makes this a mandatory talent. Yes, a Holy or Ret could bring it in Cataclysm, but they have better places to spend those points and you don't.

Toughness - A 10% buff to armor from items doesn't really take much discussion. Another mandatory talent.

Improved Hammer of Justice - A 20-second reduction in our stun is useful, though probably not game-breaking. Now that we have an off-GCD interrupt in Rebuke, HoJ doesn't see that much use in PvE. If we run into a fight where we're tanking stunnable adds that hit fairly hard, this might turn into an interesting damage reduction talent, but right now it's mostly for PvP.

Tier 3:
Hallowed Ground - An increase in damage and mana efficiency for one of our signature AoE moves. This talent provides a small increase in single-target DPS, but a larger increase in AoE DPS. More importantly, it reduces Consecration's mana cost, which makes it easier to slip into our rotation without accidentally running out of mana. Experienced Tankadins will tell you that this talent is unnecessary, even while AoE tanking. However, it's all a matter of convenience, and can be a useful set of "training wheels" for newer tankadins just getting their feet wet with the new 4.x mechanics. It's certainly a talent to consider if AoE damage is an important factor in an encounter, or just to speed up trash clears.

Sanctuary - Damage reduction, crit immunity, and our old Blessing of Sanctuary mana regen mechanic all rolled into one talent. There is no better definition of "mandatory" in my book.

Hammer of the Righteous - Our old 51-point talent has been revamped into an AoE alternative to Crusader Strike. While we'll only use this for AoE tanking, it's going to be a significant portion of our AoE threat, so it's a mandatory talent.

Wrath of the Lightbringer - A huge damage increase on Crusader Strike and Judgement would be enough to make this talent a potent DPS choice. The fact that it boosts Holy Wrath and Hammer of Wrath crit chances is just icing on the cake, and makes this the best single-target threat talent in the tree. Since it improves Holy Wrath, it's also likely to be a better AoE threat talent than Hallowed Ground for groups of 10 or fewer, and certainly better for snap aggro. This is such a huge chunk of our threat generation that it's mandatory.

Tier 4:
Reckoning - After years of derision, Reckoning is finally getting a revamp. It's now down to 2 points, at 10% chance per point (a big buff), but only triggers off of blocks (a slight nerf). In the end though, this is an overall improvement because it scales with our mastery stat. This is the third-best single-target threat talent in the tree, behind Wrath of the Lightbringer and Sacred Duty.

Shield of the Righteous - Our other staple protection ability is now one of our Holy Power "finishers" and a Tier 4 talent. ShoR is basically an Eviscerate fueled by Holy Power, and will be our primary finisher for single targets. Mandatory.

Grand Crusader - This is our fancy new proc-watching talent, which gives us a chance to reset the cooldown of Avenger's Shield. Since we'll be casting Crusader Strike or HotR on cooldown, this will give us a reasonable number of procs. The addition of Holy Power to the proc in 4.1 and the addition of Avenger's Shield to Sacred Duty have made this a fairly strong talent, and is now well worth taking.

Divine Guardian - Raidwall returns, this time in a compact one-point package with none of the damage redirect baggage. An extremely potent cooldown, it's an attractive option for moving down the tree if you'll be doing any raiding. Note that unlike the Wrath version of DG, this one no longer affects the caster, meaning you can't use it as a personal damage cooldown.

Tier 5:
Vindication - Our boss attack power debuff has left Retribution and settled down in the cozy recesses of deep Prot. It's now only 1 talent point and triggers on both CS and HotR, including any target hit by the Holy Nova component of HotR. Lasting 30 seconds is somewhat irrelevant since we'll be refreshing it every other GCD. In addition, it returns the interrupt portion of Hammer of Justice that was removed in Cataclysm.

Holy Shield - As of 4.2 Holy Shield is an active mitigation ability that boosts our block amount by 20% on a 30-second cooldown. You can argue all day (and we have) about whether this is better or worse than the old passive version, but either way it's a talent you're not going to want to skip.

Guarded by the Light - Increases the amount of healing done by your Word of Glory. The second point will also turn any amount of overheal it does into a damage shield. A lot of players have asked if this is "useless" now that it's been decoupled from Holy Shield, but I think that attitude is short-sighted. It buffs a survivability tool, gives it a new functionality (preventative damage absorb), and makes sure any overheal isn't wasted. That's still far better than spending those points in another unnecessary threat talent.

Tier 6:
Sacred Duty - A flat threat increase, this is the second-best DPS talent in the tree. With the new 939 rotation, it's no longer necessary to think about Sacred Duty, just treat it as a passive bonus and let it do its thing.

Shield of the Templar - Reduces the cooldown of AS, which is a moderate threat increase in the absence of Grand Crusader procs, as well as the cooldown of GAnK. The one-minute reduction of Avenging Wrath's cooldown is a flat DPS increase as well. In any event, the 3-minute reduction on our Shield Wall makes this a must-have.

Tier 7:
Ardent Defender - Our revamped EH booster is now our 31-point talent and our second tank cooldown. It's only a 20% damage reduction for 10 seconds, but gives us the "extra life" portion ala Guardian Spirit during that period. Certainly a nerf from its previous form, but arguably a better implementation overall.


Retribution

Tier 1:
Eye for an Eye - This is primarily a PvP talent, but it procs off of a surprising number of things. The value will vary from fight to fight, ranging from nothing to 2-3% of your DPS. If you're not a fan of the extra range of Improved Judgement, it's an option to give you a little more DPS. This might see heavier use in fight-specific builds if it happens to put up good numbers.

Crusade - Now a flat damage boost to Crusader Strike and Hammer of the Righteous, Crusade is still a potent threat talent in both single-target and AoE situations, and easily accessible in the first tier of Ret.

Improved Judgement - Instead of a cooldown reduction (now baseline), this now gives Judgement a 30-yard range, making it useful for picking up adds and brushing those hard-to-reach places. Not strictly necessary from a tank-and-spank point of view, but an incredible increase in utility for one of our staple attacks.

Tier 2:
Guardian's Favor - The old 2nd-tier prot talent is now in tier 2 of Ret. Useful for utility, perhaps a gimmick choice for certain fights at 85, but probably not a talent you'll pick for a general-purpose build.

Rule of Law - This is a potent talent that serves double-duty. The flat 5% crit per point on Crusader Strike and Hammer of the Righteous makes it a strong threat talent for single-target and AoE situations. It also buffs your Word of Glory, giving it a bit of survival value. Whether you're after threat or survivability, Rule of Law is an attractive option.

Pursuit of Justice - Love it or hate it, PoJ is still available to us in Tier 2 of Retribution. The Holy Power generation component is likely to be irrelevant for the majority of boss fights, and the Disarm component has been removed entirely.


Holy
Tier 1:
Arbiter of the Light - A 6%/12% crit increase on Judgement is a clear threat boost, but it's weak enough that it should be your last choice for points. It's also a meager survivability boost if you have the T13 2-piece bonus, but again, it's small enough that it's not very attractive. The only reason to take this would be if you're willing to give up the run speed bonus of Pursuit of Justice.

Protector of the Innocent - This talent was nerfed in 4.0.3, and no longer provides the extra healing when you use WoG on yourself. It's thus no longer relevant to prot, and not worth taking in a PvE build.

Judgements of the Pure - This is essentially a 3% haste per point buff since we cast Judgement on cooldown. It will increase melee and seal DPS (from both Seal of Truth and Censure), but won't have a noticeable increase in our GCD-based casts. As a result, it ends up being weaker than Seals of the Pure and Rule of Law. It might have a place in a max-threat build at 80 before we can reach Rule of Law, but that's about it.

Frequently Asked Talent Questions

I've seen <famous paladin name> spec differently than you suggest. Do they know something we don't?
No, probably not. But when pushing progression on new bosses, you'll often see people choose a spec that's tailored to the most difficult fight they're working on and their particular raid composition. For example, on the Lich King encounter, 1/2 Improved HoJ ensures you can apply a 6-second stun to one Valkyrie every time they're spawned, which is pretty strong (especially in 10-man if your comp is low on stuns). It's a choice that would make little sense on any other encounter, but makes a lot of sense on that one particular phase of LK. So keep in mind that there is no one "catch-all" spec that's optimized to every single encounter.

For a detailed example of a very fight-specific spec, see the "Common Builds" section of my 3.3 guide for a discussion of Lazeil's Hard-Mode LK25 spec.

That said, there are also a lot of players in good guilds that don't optimize completely. It's entirely possible to clear end-game content with a sub-optimal spec if your raid is talented and you play well. If the most-progressed paladin tank on your server is speccing Judgements of the Pure over Crusade, and they tell you that they're doing it for threat, then you have good reason to be skeptical. Send them my way and let the graphs do the work.

Changelog
12/09/2011 - Updated for 4.3
10/18/2011 - minor changes to Hallowed Ground description, glyph recommendations
07/10/2011 - Updated for 4.2
05/11/2011 - Updated for 4.1a
01/19/2011 - Minor notes about SoI glyph and Last Word.
12/30/2010 - Heavy revisions to reflect current raid environment.
12/10/2010 - Removed LK section, added Last Word build to Talent Builds.
12/06/2010 - Updated "Talent Builds" section for 85, new plot!
11/26/2010 - Builds updated to level 85, a few edits to reflect 4.0.3 changes.
11/07/2010 - A few talent revisions
11/03/2010 - Added link for the core talent build
10/20/2010 - Upgraded Glyph of Divinity to "optional," rewrote E4E entry.
10/15/2010 - Changes to the Glyphs section
10/14/2010 - Added wowhead links to Common Builds section
10/13/2010 - Added WoG to RoL, notes on Hallowed Ground & Shield of the Templar
10/12/2010 - Updated for 4.0.1
09/16/2010 - First Draft, using beta talents

reserved

Spam, and stick

theckhd wrote:Talent builds
If you're coming here and just want to know "is my spec decent?" check against this core.....if you have all the talents here your spec is probably fine, if you don't it probably needs some work. I've placed the three optional points in Divine Sacrifice and Divine Guardian since those will be "optional, but highly recommended" talents in 3.3:

Someone's been copy-pasting

Keep up the good work Theck.

Various pieces of nitpicking:

Protector of the Innocent - There's no more Judgement of Light. While the standard unified Judgement spell did provide that effect for a while, it no longer does so. That essentially only makes the Retribution Aura portions of this talent relevant.

Wrath of the Lightbringer - Value as AoE compared to Consecration varies based the amount of mobs you're expecting to tank. Holy Wrath's damage being the same in total regardless of the amount of mobs you're attacking (That is, it does x/y damage, where x is the damage and y is the amount of mobs). Consecration in comparison doesn't start losing damage per mob until it hits at least 10 mobs. Might be too complicated to include for a guide like this I suppose. I also haven't checked the numbers so if Holy Wrath still outdoes Consecration even on 10 mobs than you can ignore this.

Divine Guardian - The damage reduction no longer applies to yourself, it's still a very potent raid survivability cooldown, but you can't use it for a personal 20% damage reduction any more. While you don't imply that it can be used like that, it probably bears mentioning as it's changed functionality compared to live.

Guarded by the Light - "Increases the amount of healing done by Word of Glory and turns any amount of overheal into a damage shield." this might be better phrased if you said "overheal it does" instead of just "overheal". Unless I'm misunderstanding things and the overheal barrier provided counts for other heals than Word of Glory. Also this is probably the smallest nit to pick out.

Overall this is already looking very good.

I've been trying to check the 12 core talents, but there is no link. Only this text : The Core: <modified link that contains only the 12 essential talents>. Thank you!

Gamingdevil wrote:Someone's been copy-pasting

Shhh! Also, fixed.

Chicken wrote:Various pieces of nitpicking:

I wasn't aware that JoL was gone completely. That's a shame.

WotL obviously doesn't scale as well per mob. I don't have current numbers @ 85, so I'm not sure what the break-even point is. Since I haven't finished the calculations, I was trying to stay vague on threat-related questions. In any event, if the break-even point is 10 mobs, I suspect that WotL is the better choice just because the frequency of 10-mob tanking events is fairly low. I've added placeholder text for now, once I have more concrete numbers to work with I'll update it to reflect them.

I've made your suggested edits to the other three talents as well.

Brauun wrote:I've been trying to check the 12 core talents, but there is no link. Only this text : The Core: <modified link that contains only the 12 essential talents>. Thank you!

Unfortunately, I haven't deciphered wowtal's code (and thus can't generate impossible builds with it) and wowhead's cataclysm calculator has been up and down all day. Once the wowhead one is working properly, I'll try and get it posted.

theckhd wrote:

Brauun wrote:I've been trying to check the 12 core talents, but there is no link. Only this text : The Core: <modified link that contains only the 12 essential talents>. Thank you!

Unfortunately, I haven't deciphered wowtal's code (and thus can't generate impossible builds with it) and wowhead's cataclysm calculator has been up and down all day. Once the wowhead one is working properly, I'll try and get it posted.

No problem, I totally understand that. I just thought it was your intention to do it, and it might have been a simple error. It's more than possible to decipher which talent is 'core' and which is not by just reading the whole article anyway. Thanks for it by the way.

My intuition wants to say that we do scale with haste but it's dependent on a lot things, mainly shield block rating and talents in reckoning. Even regarding out reckoning we could see a significant increase of 21% to 23% more seal damage with 20% melee attack speed buff and 6/9% haste from JoTP achieving a 2.0 second attack speed on a 2.6 speed weapon. I think that haste could really be a solid threat choice depending on the situation. With its interaction with seals damage and mastery (via reckoning) it presents us with 4 threat stats of exp, hit, haste, mastery. (i count mastery as it increases how often reckoning goes off). Unfortunately with so many variables to account for it would be very hard to see how haste could scale as a threat stat. (block rating, melee attack(s) per second, hit, expertise, melee haste/slow effects, weapon speed, seal damage, talents in reckoning, etc)

Theck you are my hero!

I agree with what Theckhd has posted above, except where he placed Reckoning on the list. It's procs a lot on beta atm.

This is the build I'm playing around with right now on Beta at level 85.

http://cata.wowhead.com/talent#sZcrhfRubdMhcbr:Vmq0RmmzM

I'm sure some of you will go....OMG!!! no AD!!!, but the whole point of a beta is to try stuff out, and that's what I've been doing. The glyphs shown are in game, but some are incorrect as to being prime or major glyphs. Still you get the idea.

I expect we'll get a new beta build shortly with a pass at the actual damage numbers. ATM CS is simply to weak to even use, but I'm sure it will be adjusted to be more in line with HotR.

Currently, with the way that ad works, I am leaning towards not using it either. If encounters prove to be they type which require optimal cool down usage, then I'll switch to using it, however it is a lackluster cd in it's current format form my experience.

Wrathy wrote:Currently, with the way that ad works, I am leaning towards not using it either. If encounters prove to be they type which require optimal cool down usage, then I'll switch to using it, however it is a lackluster cd in it's current format form my experience.

Err? Lackluster?

20% damage reduction is almost identical to 30% health (only with less healing overhead) - so it's Last Stand. But, wait, it's got a Cheat Death proc attached. It's not a Shieldwall, but we already have one of those. In some cases it might actually be better than Shield Wall. Certainly for "Oh crap" reactive use that sneaks up on you, it should perhaps be your primary cooldown - a cheat death proc when you're at, say, 25% hp comes in really handy. Cooldowns like Shieldwall (GAnK) are great for periods of known increased damage or known decreased healing throughput. Cooldowns like AD are great for reactive/panic use, or known single-bigass-spike-hit type damage. Each one has their place in the toolkit.

I also like it better than current AD because I get to use it.

Three cooldowns, one of them on a one minute timer - total of 2.0 cpm. I like where we stand on the survivability front. I like it a lot.

Meloree wrote:Three cooldowns, one of them on a one minute timer - total of 2.0 cpm. I like where we stand on the survivability front. I like it a lot.

What is the third one, AD, DP, and ?. Honestly I have not spent more than 10 minutes on the PTR, and just started reading up on Cata last week, but my Go To second cd was DS/DG and that is being modified to no longer provide damage reduction for us. Are you talking about WoG?

Seriously I feel like my brain has just shut down and I cant even think straight about our class atm. Too much food for dinner I guess...

Wrathy wrote:

Meloree wrote:Three cooldowns, one of them on a one minute timer - total of 2.0 cpm. I like where we stand on the survivability front. I like it a lot.

What is the third one, AD, DP, and ?. Honestly I have not spent more than 10 minutes on the PTR, and just started reading up on Cata last week, but my Go To second cd was DS/DG and that is being modified to no longer provide damage reduction for us. Are you talking about WoG?

Seriously I feel like my brain has just shut down and I cant even think straight about our class atm. Too much food for dinner I guess...

We have Divine Barkskin, Guardian of the Ancient Shieldwall, and Ardent Defender.

DP is a 1 min CD, 20% damage reduction.
GAnK is a 2 min CD (talented), 60%? damage reduction.
AD is a 2 min CD, 20% damage reduction and cheat death.

It's the level 85 loadout I'm excited about - being short cooldowns for the 4 weeks of 4.0 raiding doesn't scare me.

Yeah in my delerium, i went back and looked at the talents and found GoAK.

I also am not a big fan of our Top Talent. I would go so far as to say "lackluster" is kind.

The damage reduction is no greater than a baseline spell, the "save you from death" part only works in cases where you anticipate that you could die, and it only "heals" you back to 15% health.

If they can't keep me up with a 20% damage reduction, is healing back to 15% really going to matter?

Sure it will in some cases, but we don't even have a "under X% of health you take Y% less damage" mechanic any more, so that 15% really just 15%. That would be like having 10% health now. So the one hit didn't kill you; the next one will anyway.

They took a talent that we get at mid-high level now, nerfed the everloving hell out of it, and gave it back to us as our Class-Defining Top-Tier Talent.

Colour me unimpressed.

It used to be you had to put a heap of points into a tree in order to get the top tier talent, which you wanted to do because it was a Cool Thing To Have. The only reason I have to sink 31 points into the new prot tree is they won't let me spend them elsewhere until I put 31 in that tree.

After looking at the nerf to Divine protection (unless its a bug on the cata side of wow head), dropping our bubble wall down to 20% makes me think I will lean towards needing more cds and making Ardent defender a necessity. If the best a paladin can do is 20%, then we are far lower than the other classes and will need more cds to chain.

Shield Wall is 40%
IBF is 30% plus the ungodly amount of self healing they can do
Survival Instincts (60%) and Frenzied Regen (30% hp boost) are both superior as well

Here is for hoping for more balance...

I also wanted to discuss the concepts of dual specilization and what we will be using it for in Cata. I have always been a tank who has both specs prot. Originally it was one for main tanking normal instances and one for anub'arak, then it transitioned into Threat vs. survival. And finally, when HM LK came out, it was threat and HM LK spec.

Going into cata, with the glyphs, and the talent choices that we have, it will be more of a necessity for myself, and many paladins to have a spec for single target tanking and one for AoE. Moving talents into Hallowed Ground, replacing glyphs to maximize threat in AoE situations, etc will be necessary for min/maxing.