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Maintankadin

Ulduar 10 completed in all blues group

skolor
Wed Aug 26, 2009 5:53 pm

Re: Ulduar 10 completed in all blues group

Tybran: reading this, I thought the exact opposite. For example, the other day the GM was talking trying the Zerg strategy for OS+3. I told him no, we can't do that. His defense: People did it in t7. To which I also said "People also cleared Ulduar in t7" (We still haven't).

Just because some people have the skill needed to do things, doesn't mean that your guild does.
Tybran
Wed Aug 26, 2009 6:05 pm

Re: Ulduar 10 completed in all blues group

That I realize. But this will at least serve to show that my guild needs to drop it's "We don't have the gear" attitude, and start improving on themselves and how they play.
Cema
Wed Aug 26, 2009 6:09 pm

Re: Ulduar 10 completed in all blues group

uke wrote:Ran across this article today on greedygoblin.blogspot.com. Gevlon and his guild completed all of Ulduar 10 normal modes wearing nothing but BLUE gear, not a single epic on them.

http://greedygoblin.blogspot.com/2009/08/ungeared.html

Makes me want to tell the tards who go "whisper me your epic gearscore in order to get invited to Naxx25/VoA" to get bent and learn to stop sucking.

Like has been said on here many times, yet many people still don't get it:

SKILL > GEAR

Discuss.




CAPTAAAAAAAIIIIIN OBVIOUUUUUUUUUS !
skolor
Wed Aug 26, 2009 6:15 pm

Re: Ulduar 10 completed in all blues group

Tybran wrote:That I realize. But this will at least serve to show that my guild needs to drop it's "We don't have the gear" attitude, and start improving on themselves and how they play.


This may be true, but its a lot easier to improve gear than improve skill. I would say 90% of WoW players just go "EJ said this was best, so I do it (kinda, but not quite as good as I could)". It puts them into the Decent Enough to Clear Content group, but far from the Clearing Content Undergeared group, or even the Clearing Hard Modes group. I wouldn't set foot into any raid unless at least 90% of the raiders had at least 90% gear from the previous tier, without there being a definite statement "We're going to do the first X bosses, which are crazy easy, then stopping".
mavfin
Wed Aug 26, 2009 8:10 pm

Re: Ulduar 10 completed in all blues group

The point here is that there's several of us that think it's idiotic how people in-game (and some on this forum) pick people for pugs by gear score and achievement, and leave our alts who are adequately geared, know the fights well, and won't stand in the fire out of the raid, and then bitch about how bad puggies are.

Edit: Clarification
Jasari
Wed Aug 26, 2009 8:14 pm

Re: Ulduar 10 completed in all blues group

mavfin wrote:The point here is that there's several of us that think it's idiotic how people in-game (and some on this forum) pick people for pugs by gear score, and leave our alts who are adequately geared, know the fights well, and won't stand in the fire out of the raid, and then bitch about how bad puggies are.


Maybe we'll need a "what battlegroup are you in" thread so we can organize pugs with fellow forum members to help gear up our alts with non-fail pugs?

That is of course, if blizzard allows an option for cross realm LFG without using their automated matching system.
andx
Wed Aug 26, 2009 8:16 pm

Re: Ulduar 10 completed in all blues group

Jasari wrote:
mavfin wrote:The point here is that there's several of us that think it's idiotic how people in-game (and some on this forum) pick people for pugs by gear score, and leave our alts who are adequately geared, know the fights well, and won't stand in the fire out of the raid, and then bitch about how bad puggies are.


Maybe we'll need a "what battlegroup are you in" thread so we can organize pugs with fellow forum members to help gear up our alts with non-fail pugs?

That is of course, if blizzard allows an option for cross realm LFG without using their automated matching system.

I was about to start it but your idea. I say make a thread for each group and make a listing of who is in which group. Some sort of data base or something would be sweet.
Jasari
Wed Aug 26, 2009 8:24 pm

Re: Ulduar 10 completed in all blues group

andx wrote:I was about to start it but your idea. I say make a thread for each group and make a listing of who is in which group. Some sort of data base or something would be sweet.


It's probably worth waiting until blizz implements the feature, and hopefully the cross-realm/game chat feature. That way we can just list our account names rather than all our character names.
andx
Wed Aug 26, 2009 8:29 pm

Re: Ulduar 10 completed in all blues group

Jasari wrote:
andx wrote:I was about to start it but your idea. I say make a thread for each group and make a listing of who is in which group. Some sort of data base or something would be sweet.


It's probably worth waiting until blizz implements the feature, and hopefully the cross-realm/game chat feature. That way we can just list our account names rather than all our character names.

Good call /thumbsup
Averroes
Wed Aug 26, 2009 9:21 pm

Re: Ulduar 10 completed in all blues group

Tell us how you guys do in hard modes k tnx. :P
Panzerdin
Wed Aug 26, 2009 9:28 pm

Re: Ulduar 10 completed in all blues group

It's probably worth noting that, when you think about it, Ulduar 10 actually isn't that hard.

And that, whatever he says, gear makes a massive difference to playing, as he would learn if he were to think about it. The difference from blues to full ToC is at least a factor of 2, and probably approaching three in some cases.
fafhrd
Wed Aug 26, 2009 9:53 pm

Re: Ulduar 10 completed in all blues group

I think people are going to excessive lengths about what they think his point is before evaluating how well he makes it.

I think his point was just "hey look, ulduar 10 can be cleared in blues".
Panzerdin
Wed Aug 26, 2009 10:04 pm

Re: Ulduar 10 completed in all blues group

The myth of the gear

As you saw yesterday, we cleared Ulduar 10 in blue gear. The question is obvious: why bother? And even better: why spend loads of gold on this?

This plan was a long-long one. Actually it came when my girlfriend's newly leveled (lvl 70) prot warrior was invited to a Gruul run as friend to an empty DPS spot and ended up tanking him successfully after the real tank pulled the combination of falling debris + hurtful strike + missing shield block (in lvl 70 the monsters had a "crushing" attack on tanks that should be prevented by using abilities).

From this display I was sure that gear is vastly overrated in the game. It was further enforced by the event when Ensidia cleared Naxx25+Maly25 in lvl70 stuff. I wrote about how little upgrade gear gives, convincing nobody, despite the obvious math. It took some time to realize that this is not just a mistake of ignorance. It is a Myth that has strong emotional value among WoW players.

Even more surprisingly the Myth is shared by both top and bottom players, despite they disagree in everything. I've seen guilds not accepting applicants if they have non-epic gems or having "wrong race" (non-orc for hunter for example). On the bottom, the people blame all failures on "being ungeared", honestly believing that the guy with 1200DPS is just needs some more ilvl200 replaced by ilvl 213.

I believe if the players would be asked "How much stronger an Ulduar geared player is than a blue geared?", vast majority would guess 2x-3x more. That's why topguilds do undermanned runs but never ever tried blue geared runs. I believe most topguilds would prefer having 1 top geared player and one empty spot than 2 blue geared players.

I've already done the math, won't do it again. As a simple example please compare my stats in blue gear and (mostly ilvl226) epics:
Tree spell power: 1717 (2428)
Crit%: 8.8 (14.7)
Haste: 90 (301)
casting MP5: 246 (368)
HP: 14800 (17700)
Mana: 14400 (18300)
My rejuvenation ticks for 1860 instead of 1660. If we consider haste and assume it could crit for +100% (like most spells) then my power would be 1860*(1+0.147)*(1+0.1225) = 2394 instead of 1660*(1+0.088)*(1+0.0366)=1872. The difference is 22%. If we add 300 more SP and a Val'anyr, we are still at +40%

Another direct example is the damage meters from our blue Ulduar run. I don't see 1200 here:



Edit: I can't believe that I have to explain the obvious. I get "my guild has 8K DPS in epics so the math is flawed" comments without any math. Well, the difference comes not from gear but from raid buffs and synergies. With having a synergic team instead of "anyone who wanted to come" we could increase raid DPS with 20-30%. Just think of the melee zergs or the full-caster teams. Compare plain dummy DPS in different gear for results. Simple example: GF's ilvl 200 hunter does 2.6K on dummy, 5.4K on Patchwerk25. The "bring the player not the class" is a nonsense, just most people are too bad in maths to recognize it.

Last evidence, and I refuse to argue with anyone who doesn't provide evidence just "anecdotes": I downloaded Shandara's hunter DPS spreadsheat. The "sample SV spec" had 7250 DPS in full T8.5 and all juicy stuff. I replaced every gear pieces with blues (and might picked some bear tank stuff as I suck at hunter) and got 4950 DPS. So the increase is 46%.



Now let's see how could this Myth survive, despite being obviously wrong and could be easily defeated by mathematics. The reason it survives within the lower segments of the playerbase will be the post for tomorrow. For today let's see why the top players vastly overvalue gear. There are a wrong and an acceptable, but seriously suboptimal reason.

The wrong comes from the bias of overvaluing everything we worked hard for. The top player may wiped weeks for that bosskill, and while he initially did it for the challenge itself, or being world first or server first or whatever first, he will see the loot as reward. He matches the value of the gear to the effort, while there is no such connection. For example you can get ilvl 245 from facerolling Colisseum while hard mode Ulduar loot is just ilvl 239. If the same loot would come from a vendor for 1000G, the same player would not find it so great, despite it has the same stat.

The second reason is using gear as a primary screening tool for application. Topguilds get several applicants, 90% of them are not acceptable, because they are just M&S want to be carried, or immature punks. Looking at the gear is a 10 sec process and filters out obvious slackers. However this is highly sub-optimal as it forces the applicant to farm 5-mans and Naxx for gear he will dust anyway in the first 2 weeks in the guild. This turns several potential good players away if they don't have the time or the will to farm boring content. For example I would surely not raid if I had to attend 5 raids in 2 weeks, considering that 3 of them are boring farmruns (extending raid ID helps, we keep the same ID until Firefighter goes down, that increases my attendance largely). Luckily there is a goblin solution for this problem: the applicant could get the attention of the guild for gold: "try me out in a 5-man or 10-man, I pay 1K, if I fail, you keep the gold, if I'm not, you get a good new member".

He definitely isn't trying to make a point about gear not being hugely important. Not at all.
Goreon
Wed Aug 26, 2009 10:32 pm

Re: Ulduar 10 completed in all blues group

Whilst we might be able to stand back and come to the logical conclusion that skill will see you home I think it has to be stated very strongly that this experiment was conducted in a very controlled environment and simply isn't indicative of real world experience.

For sure some of you will pipe up and claim that it's unfair your Alts are not being accepted into runs for PUG groups even though you KNOW the fights, but as an experienced MT myself I can't even begin to tell you how many times I've heard the EXACT same thing from random scrub idiots who will spin ANY bullshit just to get a pug spot for easy epic loots.

The bottom line is that there are no real indicators of skill beyond the basics of gear and achievement.

Does it prove that people with [EPIC] and [ACHIEVEMENT] are skilled and the 'best' option for your group?

Of course not.

But that's not the point.

The Point is that given no other indicators of what will prove who is suitable, we have to go with the best options we have at our fingertips. Those options are achievements and gear.

Like it or not, that's the reality of the situation and in a day and age where players will spin any bullshit they can conceive in order for you to carry them into the purple gear, you have to be very mindful of the fact and make more selective choices.

Put another way, if you're a Tank in decent gear (ie hefty potential repair bills) are you *honestly* going to select some random in blues who says they can do the job, or take the other guy who pst's you next with links for their achievement and epic?

You can say whatever you like to that in response here, but you and I both know what you're going to choose.


Gav proved that you can clear Yogg with a GOOD TEAM with SKILL, EXPERIENCE, KNOWLEDGE, PATIENCE and COMMUNICATION in blues. That's stands up perfectly to logic.

The suggested implication however, is that we should all just put aside the notion of gear and achievements and just invite any random in blues who claims they know the fight.

As a MT with enough horror story experiences over the years with PUGs all I can say to that is... 'tell him he's dreamin'

It's a nice conceptual ideal, but in reality, it's not going to amount to anything.

I'm in it for a quick badge run, not to prove a point. Either link your [EPIC] / [ACHIEVEMENT] or make way for the next bloke who will. THAT is the bottom line...
Teranoid
Wed Aug 26, 2009 10:33 pm

Re: Ulduar 10 completed in all blues group

I can't believe anyone would read all that junk