LFR/Flex and heroic raiders

Darielle wrote:A system which has an incentive to do X is going to have people doing X. Turning that around and going "Why are you doing this if you don't want to?" is a little bit silly.

This is where I jump of any train. If you don't want to do it then don't fucking do it. This is always a no-win situation on Blizzard's end where Group A will bitch that Blizzard is limiting them for no reason if Blizzard decides to limit it and Group B will bitch that they are "forced" to do it if Blizzard doesn't limit it. Eventually players have to step up and take responsibility for their own decision to run the same raid content 3+ times a week to get that trinket or tier set bonus.

Flex wrote:

Darielle wrote:A system which has an incentive to do X is going to have people doing X. Turning that around and going "Why are you doing this if you don't want to?" is a little bit silly.

This is where I jump of any train. If you don't want to do it then don't fucking do it. This is always a no-win situation on Blizzard's end where Group A will bitch that Blizzard is limiting them for no reason if Blizzard decides to limit it and Group B will bitch that they are "forced" to do it if Blizzard doesn't limit it. Eventually players have to step up and take responsibility for their own decision to run the same raid content 3+ times a week to get that trinket or tier set bonus.

And this was the original intention behind my "blaming Lays because you cannot just eat one chip" comment.

Well, tell me how would you stop heroic raiders from complaining about people doing LFR/Flex and getting gear from it?

There needs to be a carrot at the end of the stick, regardless of what kind of raider you are.

What's more, seeing it from Blizz' perspective, it's better to piss off the heroic raiders than lfr/flex/normal raiders seeing as heroic raiders make the smallest of the group, population wise.

Why piss off any raiders? Do you actually think a loot lockout so that you only have 1 shot at a trinket every week would make people complain that they CAN'T farm 3 modes for 3 shots every week?

And if I mention the whole LFR ALL THE TIME is because that was an argument back in Dragon Soul! How heroic raiders were forced to do LFR to get tier pieces/trinkets. Oh the humanity!

So what, we're responding to 2-3 year old arguments from people on WoW's General Discussion now?

Heroic raiders are the ones making a mountain out of a molehill regarding having the chance to do LFR/Flex just to get an extra piece of gear, and no one else. What's that... an extra hour of game time?

*palmface*

Heroic raiders pointing out that Flex adds to LFR are pointing out that it's an hour more of game time on top of the hour more of game time that they're already spending on something boring. Incentivising people to do more boredom doesn't make them more attached to the game when not raiding - which was the original premise for incentivising non-raid activities to begin with.

This is where I jump of any train. If you don't want to do it then don't fucking do it. This is always a no-win situation on Blizzard's end where Group A will bitch that Blizzard is limiting them for no reason if Blizzard decides to limit it and Group B will bitch that they are "forced" to do it if Blizzard doesn't limit it. Eventually players have to step up and take responsibility for their own decision to run the same raid content 3+ times a week to get that trinket or tier set bonus.

"A system which has an incentive to do X is going to have people doing X. Turning that around and going "Why are you doing this if you don't want to?" is a little bit silly."

Do you think Blizzard feels no-win and losing out by limiting Valor to 1000 a week currently? Or that they're losing out because people are so annoyed that they can't farm both 10-man and 25-man every week? Or that they lost out by limiting the Elder Charms grind? Or revamping Consumables? Or having a weekly lockout at all on loot?

The reason people follow a system that they have incentive to is that you have put the incentive in the system so that they will do it where they otherwise don't want to. It's asinine to complain about players complaining about a system when the point of that incentive is so that they will go there.

Darielle wrote:Do you think Blizzard feels no-win and losing out by limiting Valor to 1000 a week currently? Or that they're losing out because people are so annoyed that they can't farm both 10-man and 25-man every week? Or that they lost out by limiting the Elder Charms grind?

Yes. I think in an ideal game environment where people do only the things in the game that they want to do there would be zero limits placed on those.

Darielle wrote:The reason people follow a system that they have incentive to is that you have put the incentive in the system so that they will do it where they otherwise don't want to. It's asinine to complain about players complaining about a system when the point of that system is so that they will go there.

Why are you defending people doing things they don't want to? Stop it! People doing things they don't want to and complaining about it are the reason Blizzard limits things in the first place. Take some god damn responsibility for doing things you don't want to do and quit looking to Blizzard to save you from yourself.

Being a normal mode raider who is still progressing through ToT I'd fall into the heavily incentivized group who would totally benefit from doing LFR, except I don't because it is fucking awful.

Why are you defending people doing things they don't want to? Stop it! People doing things they don't want to and complaining about it are the reason Blizzard limits things in the first place. Take some god damn responsibility for doing things you don't want to do and quit looking to Blizzard to save you from yourself.

What is the reason they do things they don't want to do? Because incentive.
What is the purpose behind incentivising Heroic players into things they don't want to do? Because Blizzard was afraid that raiders who raid and then logoff are bored by the game.
Does having them do LFR keep them interested in the game? No.

Where is the player at fault for creating the incentive? He or she is just doing things as the game wants him/her to do.

Yes. I think in an ideal game environment where people do only the things in the game that they want to do there would be zero limits placed on those.

That's not an ideal game environment. Ideal game environments are where people enjoy the things they want to do.

Being a normal mode raider who is still progressing through ToT I'd fall into the heavily incentivized group who would totally benefit from doing LFR, except I don't because it is fucking awful.

You know this is meaningless right?

Not only are many Heroic raiders also of similar opinion, it doesn't have any bearing on the system. If you don't want to do LFR when there's an incentive, you will still not want to do LFR if there's no incentive. More, that not 100% of people are enticed by an incentive doesn't make the incentive any lesser.

So what, we're responding to 2-3 year old arguments from people on WoW's General Discussion now?

Apparently, that premise is valid back then as it is today, according to you. A bunch of heroic raiders were complaining here that they felt forced to do LFR because it offered them an option to get another piece of loot

You're the one talking about doing LFR/Flex and how it is boring.

I am beginning to think that is the crux of your complaint against Flex/LFR, that it is boring having to trudge thru those modes to get an extra chance at a piece of shiny.

It's not that the chance at the shiny is there, just that it's boring. I don't think Blizz would consider that a valid argument to have flex/lfr and normals share lockouts.

Of course, others had a different idea, and that was to making LFR and Normal/Heroic have different loottables, that way they would not be "forced" to do LFR.

But both options boiled down to "Don't make me go to LFR".

Now, I won't say I don't see where you're coming from... I did all the dailies, and loathed every minute of it, because I felt a certain need to better my toon in order to perform better in raids, even if I'm not raiding at the same level as you -- but Flex, ultimately is right, it's a choice, and I was the one that chose to do something I loathed just because of the reward.

It does not mean the system worked, I'd say the dailies are worse than choosing to do LFR... and is possible many people left the game over the dailies, but really? between dailies and LFR/Flex, the latter is the lesser of two evils.

Darielle wrote:What is the reason they do things they don't want to do? Because incentive.
What is the purpose behind incentivising Heroic players into things they don't want to do? Because Blizzard was afraid that raiders who raid and then logoff are bored by the game.
Does having them do LFR keep them interested in the game? No.

Not only are many Heroic raiders also of similar opinion, it doesn't have any bearing on the system. If you don't want to do LFR when there's an incentive, you will still not want to do LFR if there's no incentive. More, that not 100% of people are enticed by an incentive doesn't make the incentive any lesser.

I think Blizz is not trying to incentivize LFR to heroic players, I think players are coming up with that idea in the first place. Just because they see a chance at getting something that is useful for them does not mean Blizz planned that content with them in mind.

It's the reason why Watcher said something akin to heroic raiders would not be spending valor point on Flex gear because they would be better serviced by spending the valor points on upgrades that drop from Normal/Heroic.

Then don't do LFR. Flex would be a better choice for heroic raiders in any case! A pre-made group that clears thru the content like a hot knife thru butter! At least you're raiding with your friends, right?

Seriously, it just sounds like you want to limit LFR/Flex because you MIGHT benefit from them, nevermind the people that content was made for, eh?

Apparently, that premise is valid back then as it is today, according to you. A bunch of heroic raiders were complaining here that they felt forced to do LFR because it offered them an option to get another piece of loot

The premise that they have an incentive to do LFR is certainly true. The premise that they are FORCED to do it isn't. And even back then, I highly doubt that they were whining that they needed to do LFR Morchok while they wanted their LFR No'Kaled.

You're the one talking about doing LFR/Flex and how it is boring.

I am beginning to think that is the crux of your complaint against Flex/LFR, that it is boring having to trudge thru those modes to get an extra chance at a piece of shiny.

It's not that the chance at the shiny is there, just that it's boring. I don't think Blizz would consider that a valid argument to have flex/lfr and normals share lockouts.

Again, you're conflating points. THe fact that the system is boring simply means that the reason for the incentive isn't working. It doesn't keep people more interested in the game to make them do more boring things; you want them to play the game more and to enjoy playing the game more.

None of that would mean that if LFR was somehow "fun", it would be great for LFR to contain items that literally make or break entire specs.

But both options boiled down to "Don't make me go to LFR".

Now, I won't say I don't see where you're coming from... I did all the dailies, and loathed every minute of it, because I felt a certain need to better my toon in order to perform better in raids, even if I'm not raiding at the same level as you -- but Flex, ultimately is right, it's a choice, and I was the one that chose to do something I loathed just because of the reward.

It does not mean the system worked, I'd say the dailies are worse than choosing to do LFR... and is possible many people left the game over the dailies, but really? between dailies and LFR/Flex, the latter is the lesser of two evils.

Riddle me three things:
- What do you think is lost if Heroic raiders aren't incentivised to go into LFR?
- You say that it does not mean the system worked, but it either did or it didn't. Did doing those dailies make you feel more invested in the game, more likely to keep playing the game? Or did they just ruin some of the fun you were having within the game?
- Do you really think that choices that boil down to "This gives you an advantage" form a choice? Choosing to perform better? As opposed to what, actively choosing to perform worse is fun? Or that the game is somehow bettered by choices that come down to whether you play the game on a given night or not?

I think Blizz is not trying to incentivize LFR to heroic players, I think players are coming up with that idea in the first place. Just because they see a chance at getting something that is useful for them does not mean Blizz planned that content with them in mind.

Remember that we're talking about several iterations in. If there's no reason to incentivise LFR for raiders, it's extremely easy to not have Heroic players get extra loot from LFR. Not to mention that whether an incentive exists isn't limited to whether that incentive was planned.

Seriously, it just sounds like you want to limit LFR/Flex because you MIGHT benefit from them, nevermind the people that content was made for, eh?

Uh, HOW do you possibly plot not having raiders doing LFR/Flex on top of their normal raids affects the people the content was made for?
Will they not succeed in LFR/Flex without Heroic raiders?
Will they have worse loot in LFR/Flex if there's a loot lockout that allows Blizzard to make LFR/Flex offer even better loot than it currently does on the basis that you can only obtain loot from one mode anyway?
Will they have less of a personal progression if, in the case of modifications to LFR/Flex pieces, their LFR UVLS proc wasn't as powerful as to break a spec but was still powerful enough to be significantly better than their 483?

The actual reason what Ion talked about doesn't quite mesh is that it's based on things that are entirely out of player control or don't mesh -
Whether you have a trinket or not isn't a short time commitment. It's a variable commitment that could be nonexistent or be the entire patch length. That it's variable doesn't make it better.
He thinks that upgrading Flex gear is an either/or choice, when it isn't.
He ignored the effect of itemisation entirely, even though that's a cornerstone of patch cycles as an expansion goes on.
That Heroic raiders will progress in Heroic mode and Normal mode raiders will progress in Normal mode wasn't even a debating point, so its mention makes little sense. Doing LFR or Flex in addition to standard raids has nothing to do with progressing in the other modes.

Then don't do LFR. Flex would be a better choice for heroic raiders in any case! A pre-made group that clears thru the content like a hot knife thru butter! At least you're raiding with your friends, right?

If you have everyone in a 10-man on every night, it's basically another raid night. So no, not really. Especially for 10-mans, Flex just means pugging.

Riddle me three things:
- What do you think is lost if Heroic raiders aren't incentivised to go into LFR?
- You say that it does not mean the system worked, but it either did or it didn't. Did doing those dailies make you feel more invested in the game, more likely to keep playing the game? Or did they just ruin some of the fun you were having within the game?
- Do you really think that choices that boil down to "This gives you an advantage" form a choice, and if so do you think things like having crappy talents were also choices? Or that the game is somehow bettered by choices that come down to whether you play the game on a given night or not?

A)In and of itself, nothing would be lost if heroic raiders dont do LFR. However, what you want is different. What you want is for blizz to remove the temptation, which is something else.

B)It ruined the fun. I came close to quitting the game, until I got over the hump. But in the end, it was my choice, just like Flex and Teranoid's choices were equally as valid and said "Fuck it, not doing X" -- Forgive me for the namedropping, but I remember you guys being vocal about not doing dailies/LFRs.

The value of the rewards are pretty subjective. The system works, I placed a certain value upon the rewards above my disdain for the dailies. It also seemed to work for Flex/Tera, when they said "screw this, the reward is not enough for me" (again, sorry for namedropping) -- when I said the system did not work was that I dont think Blizz was expecting the dailies to be such a point of contention that it would cause so many people to quit.

I think everyone would agree that having placed valor purchases behind reps was a bad idea, regardless on whether you actually did the dailies or not.

c)Ultimately? Yes. I could understand the top guilds gaming Dragon Soul LFR, even if I didn't agree with that and was very vocal about it. But seeing how the creme of the crop beats the content before that "Advantage" is available...

Like I said, some of the VP gear was a huge "Advantage" for me seeing how my raid/guild in T14 sucked balls, so I had to "bite the bullet" and do things I didnt want to, but it was my own personal choice.

Is your Raid Leader saying you NEED to do LFR/Flex for an extra chance at shiny otherwise you get kicked from the raid team? Maybe you should reconsider who you play with rather than what the game offers.

So, how's the discussion on this raid's slew of new bos...



Don't mind me, just an Hc raider, backing out reaaaaal slow.

Hey, don't look at me! All I did was post Blizz' response to the complaints about Flex gear being higher ilvl that originally expected.

Sagara wrote:Don't mind me, just an Hc raider, backing out reaaaaal slow.

Agreed. You'll catch me doing Flex/LFR to:
1) Get more valor
2) Play with cross-realm friends
3) To try out different strats/mechanics

It seems some heroic raiders won't be happy until non-heroic players are on different servers with completely different content.

It amuses me that they want to push down content that "isn't their's" so far that no one would ever want to do it.

This last page in a nutshell:

"Bbbut I wanna be bleeding edge and I don't wanna have to do flex modes!"
"Then don't do it"
"BBBUT MUH HEROIC RAIDS!"

I'm just waiting for the day when some guild blames losing a server first boss kill on not doing Flex or something equally as stupid.

Teranoid wrote:This last page in a nutshell:

"Bbbut I wanna be bleeding edge and I don't wanna have to do flex modes!"
"Then don't do it"
"BBBUT MUH HEROIC RAIDS!"

I'm just waiting for the day when some guild blames losing a server first boss kill on not doing Flex or something equally as stupid.

More like, the last 3 pages...

I haven't really paid much attention to be honest. I tend to tune out every time someone decides to present some sob story about being "forced" to do something in a video game.

Darielle wrote:Where is the player at fault for creating the incentive? He or she is just doing things as the game wants him/her to do.

The player is at fault for blaming Blizzard that they are "forced" to do something they don't want to do because the player is a weak willed gear whore.

That's not an ideal game environment. Ideal game environments are where people enjoy the things they want to do.

The things I want to do in game are the things I enjoy doing. I am sorry you do not have the same experience.

Teranoid wrote:I haven't really paid much attention to be honest. I tend to tune out every time someone decides to present some sob story about being "forced" to do something in a video game.

So I bought Assassins Creed 3 on the Steam sale. That is the worst fucking game I've played. 4 hours in and I've maybe played 30 minutes of game and watched 3 and a half hours of cutscenes. I would love for that game to force gameplay on me.

You know, i was thinking of picking up AC3, if only because I like the revolutionary war...

Klaudandus wrote:You know, i was thinking of picking up AC3, if only because I like the revolutionary war...

Don't.

Flex wrote:

Klaudandus wrote:You know, i was thinking of picking up AC3, if only because I like the revolutionary war...

Don't.

I shall heed your warning then.

I didn't mind the story....hated Conner though....ugh.....

Blizzard already stated that different lockouts wouldn't work. Say there's this Bob in your raiding guild that doesn't raid, only LFR. He casually works his way through the LFR instances during the first few evenings of the week. Then on monday, Joe got sick, so you need a replacement, and Bob just happens to be online. Right now, you can pull Bob in, and see how he does. If they shared lockouts, even if that were just loot lockouts, you couldn't take Bob along. (And no, specifying that Bob in illegible for loot because he already had his chance on loot in LFR doesn't work, because the boss still drops 2/6 pieces.)

WoW is really a game about investment->reward. That's a really core part of the game. Running LFR and Flex is an investment which has loot at it's reward. This shall always be the case, else LFR and Flex would be abandoned. The trick is to make the reward as minimal as possible for people that should be running 1 or 2 difficulties higher, and I think they pushed things as much in that direction as they could, while still keeping the investment->reward present for the people LFR is intended for.

People that currently have ToT HC on farm have about 543ish gear. The 528 gear from LFR won't cut it. The 540 gear from Flex might with upgrades, but people that have ToT HC on farm will progress quite rapidly through SoO and loot some 553 items, and since you can only upgrade 2 items per week on average, they are more likely to save their valor on upgrading 553 gear to 561.

People that currently have ToT Normal on farm and perhaps dabbled in a few HC bosses, or perhaps not, have about 530ish gear. The 528 gear from LFR still won't cut it, because they won't spend valor on upgrading LFR gear when there's Flex gear and perhaps some normal pieces available for them. The 540 gear will be helping them out a lot, though.

So it's more the normal guilds that have an incentive to farm Flex on top of their normal runs than HC guilds. Of course, well itemized pieces, tier pieces and trinkets skew things over a bit, as they don't strictly follow the ilvl pattern.

Also, the "If you don't want to, don't do it." is a really cheap argument. WoW is not a single player game, it's a group effort game. If you are slacking on gearing up, you're not just making things harder on yourself, you're making things harder on 9/24 others as well. Not wanting to let your guildies down is enough of a reason for a lot of people to be forced into running LFRs.

A lot of people are in guilds where that is perfectly acceptable. Where the mentality in the guild is that it doesn't matter that much if the boss goes down or not, as long as you guys have fun trying. And that's all perfectly well. If that's a way in how you can enjoy the game, then all the more power to you!

Other people are really result driven, and would really like to see that boss go down. And if one half of the raiding squad is running their LFRs every week to get that last trinket or tier piece, to give their very best, that could certainly cause some peer pressure on the other half to do the same, even if it's not specifically requested by the guild leader or any member in specific, and there are no penalties for not doing so.

A)In and of itself, nothing would be lost if heroic raiders dont do LFR. However, what you want is different. What you want is for blizz to remove the temptation, which is something else.

Again, you're reading what you want to read.

Why did this come up? Because Ion said something, which doesn't actually quite work the way he thinks it does on several points. People won't have a problem upgrading Flex gear - because there'll be nothing else to do with Valor unless they get loot showered onto them, and so on.

What do you think I've said? I've pointed out a few different implementations where Heroic raiders won't be incentivised to go into LFR for power upgrades - even simple things like a loot lockout which the Legendary chain already has. Unless that is something that needs to be preserved, it doesn't diminish character progression for LFR/Flex's target audience. It doesn't even prevent raiders from going to LFR or Flex mode with friends, for fun, to do metas, etc. What it does do is remove the power advantage gained - because there's nothing good coming out of that design.

In fact, it would improve the experience for the actual intended audience. For one, you could do away with silly gating entirely.

If you think any of that has anything to do with whining about being forced to do something, you're making up your own imaginary douchebag and talking to them.

The player is at fault for blaming Blizzard that they are "forced" to do something they don't want to do because the player is a weak willed gear whore.

But:
- The only people talking about anyone being forced to do anything are you.
- The ilvl's are such because they feel that without that, people won't find the gear good enough, so for the player to be a weak willed gear whore, it means EVERYONE is a weak willed gear whore and the game is designed as such.
- A weak willed gear whore would want more of these advantages as early as possible because it would get things done sooner.
- Their intent to get people out in the world more is a little bit hampered if people are double-doing raids.
- That's irrelevant to Blizzard.

The things I want to do in game are the things I enjoy doing.

Those are also the things everyone wants to do. That people want to do the things they enjoy doing is one of the reasons this kind of discussion even crops up.

AC3's story isn't bad, but the gameplay is just silly. FOr a lot of it, you just randomly click, win and move on.

Blizzard already stated that different lockouts wouldn't work. Say there's this Bob in your raiding guild that doesn't raid, only LFR. He casually works his way through the LFR instances during the first few evenings of the week. Then on monday, Joe got sick, so you need a replacement, and Bob just happens to be online. Right now, you can pull Bob in, and see how he does. If they shared lockouts, even if that were just loot lockouts, you couldn't take Bob along. (And no, specifying that Bob in illegible for loot because he already had his chance on loot in LFR doesn't work, because the boss still drops 2/6 pieces.)

That doesn't actually affect looting. Bob's presence or eligibility for loot doesn't affect the loot that does drop, so whether the boss drops the same 2 pieces and only 8, 9 or 2 people CAN loot it won't make those people get more loot, or change anything. Bob being ineligible as a Rogue won't mean that Agi Leather won't drop.

It's not like, say, DS LFR where having people locked out made things better.

People that currently have ToT HC on farm have about 543ish gear. The 528 gear from LFR won't cut it. The 540 gear from Flex might with upgrades, but people that have ToT HC on farm will progress quite rapidly through SoO and loot some 553 items, and since you can only upgrade 2 items per week on average, they are more likely to save their valor on upgrading 553 gear to 561.

Do you typically get more than 2 pieces every week, in your experience?
Would you choose to upgrade a 553 ring or neck or cloak and NOT a 540 Chest or Legs or Weapon or Trinket? Because I know what >I'd< upgrade there, and isn't not the higher item level.

Also, side note, I would say that the people with Normal on farm and dabbling in a few HC mode ARE the Heroic raiders. They're in fact the majority of them. People with Ra-Den down not so much.