No Beef with the Light: The anti-tauren movement.

Voldiir wrote:

mavfin wrote:I think Forsaken Paladins is much, much worse than Tauren Paladins. I do not support this.

Agreed. Blizzard understood that they would need to alter lore to accomodate this change. This is why they added in the wounded soldier quest (or whatever) to take the shield to TB. Did anyone listen to the conversation?

History is history. The world changes and different things become commonplace in reaction to events that occur. World of Warcraft is not any different. You may dislike the "desperate times call for desperate measures," but that's not the case. It's expansion of a belief. Not every person believes the same thing. Look at the trolls. How many different tribes of trolls are there? They all worship different beings, and they all go about it different ways. To believe that another race is incapable of change is not only closed-minded, but ignorant. Events take place that change people's perception forever. 10 years ago, the term 9/11 meant nothing. The name Katrina meant nothing. And now there are people whose lives are forever changed by those events. The concept exsists. Some people seem to be just too hung up in the fact that WoW is a video game to understand that it's WORLD of Warcraft. Meaning change. Meaning growth. Meaning movement. If you can't undertand that... then I feel sorry for you.
WoW is a world, living and breathing, and Blizzard is God of that world.

And I'm sorry... but the Forsaken being Paladins makes absolutely no sense what-so-ever. There is nothing to support it other than "they used to be humans." At least the Tauren had a conversation created to help open up players to the concept. The Forsaken aren't humans anymore. They have forsaken their old lives. They have forsaken the light and made their strength through their own will. Hence the name Forsaken. Hence the name Will of the Forsaken. Blizzard doesn't just make up these names because they think it sounds cool. The LAST thing that a Forsaken would care about is the ability to wield the light. In fact, I would argue that they hate it. Just like they hate humans and the Alliance.

Except:

History is history. The world changes and different things become commonplace in reaction to events that occur.

Forsaken Paladins would've been something new and something old and something same and something different. I'm pro Undead Paladins.

Aertho wrote:Mhm. You didn't really bother with reading anything in this thread did you?

Welcome to Maintankadin. I guess.

I suppose because I expressed my opinion and didn't accept the rest of this topic as fact vs opinion hardly means I didn't read it. No, I just see people like you taking things way too seriously and while I respect the ability for someone to speak their mind, I frankly don't agree with the previous posts that put trolls as the class that makes the "most sense" as a paladin. Also, reposting an idea on the explanation of validating Tauren simply looks more toward those who didn't read the topic, not that I didn't see others saying it. Calm down and judge less... unless you're playing your pally, then judge on CD. I simply recreated an account due to a name change in game. I've been around here for a long time.

Njall wrote:http://thebattlemasters.com/2009/10/21/conduct-unbecoming/

Ah, a good view on Sindorei paladins - and a damn fine webcomic!

Njall

Hmmm...I dunno if I agree on it being that good a webcomic. The art is okay, the spell icons are cute, but the writing is atrocious. Granted, most Blood Elf Paladins probably think of themselves this way, but how did that character's name not end up being Marty Stu, exactly?

Its like a really bad rap video. You get to see him riding his sweet ride (bear mount), he caps bustas in the face (gnome rogue), he's so damn sexy that hot chicks just be giving it up for him (draenei chick), and he's so awesome in the sack that when he stops penetrating them on a regular basis, they go crazy and get themselves killed over it (draenei chick, again).

Oh, and he's got a posse that's tough and intimidating (tauren warrior). They're there to punch lippy chicks in the mouth for him. Because he doesn't hit girls. That would be wrong. Otherwise, they're pretty much useless, except to make him look more awesome by comparison.

Grothnir wrote:

Amanor wrote:People seem to be hung up on the idea of growth as though because people are capable of it, in extremes in some cases, that there is no precedent for behavior that is rigorously followed. Yes, people can change, cultures can change--but it must be tempered by reason.

Excuse me for a second, please...

LOL!

That is probably the most ridiculous thing I've read in this thread, and that's saying something.

The human condition IS change. The things that people consider fundamental, bedrock beliefs are rarely more than 20 or 30 years old. Most of the current religious practice that people claim is thousands of years old would be nearly unrecognizable to people from as little as 100 years ago.

Mayhap I didn't present my point clearly, so for that I'll apologize. I'm not saying that change doesn't occur, far from it, but it occurs based on precedents, and revolves around foundations. Yes, I understand, there are concepts that some people believe are foundations that aren't. I'm not talking about those. Because there are still foundations that will exist that actually are genuine.

People change. They'll do it just fine...to varying degrees. The more of a person or culture's beliefs you try to change, the more resistance you'll find to it. People generally don't go fluttering from idea to idea on a whim, at least not at the deepest level. Change, in my assertion, happens in various possible tiers.

A) There could be a change integrated that in no way conflicts or contradicts with a core belief.
B) There could be a change integrated that compromises a facet of execution for the sake of retaining the core belief (For example, the trade off in Jewish cultures to be more open to marrying outside of one's religion, or performing important cultural acts like a bris on a goyim, if the parents agree to raise the child as a Jew.)
C) There could be a change integrated that alters a core belief partially or fully, particularly if the change would be beneficial.

Granted, there are probably more shades of gray than three, but it illustrates my point. People generally only change a fundamental belief in times of extreme duress (A-la, "Hai guies, weer totalee gunna die off lol") or if the change would be beneficial(Wait, I can worship this Christ character and not have to sacrifice something to Odin or risk my life in perpetual combat? I can get rewards like in Valhalla for not fighting all the time? Sweet!), but not generally on a whim.

And we see this demonstrated in WoW. What the Trolls believe in before the Sundering, and throughout all they've endured, what do they still believe in? The Spiritual realm, where spirits are vengeful beings that envy the living, and animal/elemental spirits represent forces of great power. Facets have changed, from Hakkari worship to abandoning cannibalism to turning on the loa themselves to take their power for one's own. But the core belief remains throughout...and while the last one does shake the core a bit, it's also in response to a time of substantial duress.

The other races that endured the Sundering have similarly maintained core beliefs. The better argument isn't that things change, it's that things can change if we assume the cores are left unchanged and this is molded to work within the parameters of the cultural precedent. Which is precisely what Aertho seems to be arguing, and to great success, I must say, given that I still only have beef with one facet of the explanation I can't get over.

Grothnir wrote:

Amanor wrote:Yes, there's going to be a Cataclysm which imperils many beyond what they're used to. That doesn't mean cultural precedents go out the window.

Yes, yes it does.

You know what it takes to make "cultural precedents" go out the window?

The passage of about 5 years. Unless you are less than 10 years old, you've have personally lived through larger paradigm shifts than what we're speculating about.

Change is the only constant. Anyone who tells you otherwise is selling something.

Mind presenting one of these 5-year paradigm shifts you're speaking of? I can't think of any tremendous cultural change, myself. Changes on the superficial level, oh, sure, but nothing like some sort of deeply moving epiphany.

Which is precisely what Aertho seems to be arguing, and to great success, I must say, given that I still only have beef with one facet of the explanation I can't get over.

Only one? Wow.

Aertho wrote:

Which is precisely what Aertho seems to be arguing, and to great success, I must say, given that I still only have beef with one facet of the explanation I can't get over.

Only one? Wow.

What can I say? I find myself growing fond of the idea of the hole in mythos the Sunwalkers could potentially fill, particularly in the manner you described it. Still prefer Forsaken, but at least I'm not frothing about it like Varian Wrynn when he sees an orc.

Haha! Yes, we're in the same boat then. I'd prefer Forsaken as well, but I did my best to build a bridge between Tauren Paladins and rational lorekeeping. I just don't trust Metzen's staff to thread the needle.

Yeah, that's the real rub. The doors that open and the questions that arise just in bringing out the deity of the Sun are numerous, but Blizzard rarely takes the more involved route when it comes to their writing.

So while I'd like a grand explanation as to who the Sun is, if he was even known to the Night Elves and the High Elves made use of that information in their revolution, where he's been, what he's been doing, why he blessed the Tauren and if he blessed the High Elves, and what potential demi-gods could he have sired...

We'll probably just end up with "The Alliance razed Taurajo! VENGEANCE! *roll Pally*"

First, I believe they're called for Forsaken not because they abruptly decided to forsake things. They believed they WERE forsaken, because the Humans reviled them as monsters for simply being undead, because the Light they had praised "allowed" them to have to endure the horror of undeath, and refused to answer their calls despite any continued faith. They believed they were forsaken by all they knew and loved, so they forsook them in turn.

You can believe what you like. I can believe that 2+2=5 regardless of what is right and wrong, I can still believe it. I guess that's the point of this. It's all opinion. However... I'm still going to go with Blizzard. You people argue about sweeping changes. Taurens becoming paladins is NOT sweeping. There are hints of it in their lore and more in their religion. This is why I asked if anyone bothered to read the convo in TB. The fact that that conversation exsists disproves sweeping changes. In fact, it pushed towards the notion that tauren are thinking about the light now. BEFORE the cataclysm. The cataclysm is just the last straw. That final push they needed.

As for undead... no. I'm sorry. They hate life. Anyone who has ever leveled an undead passed 20 knows this. Most of their questlines involve torturing the alliance, to painful and grievious ends. Then what? They laugh about it. Did you see the Wrathgate? They didn't just say death to the alliance... they yelled death to the living. They may have been forcefully forsaken years ago, but now they are damn proud of who they are and what they do.

Sects aside, Undead, in general, are hateful, vengeful, uncaring... and yes, forsaken. Tauren, in general, are natural, peaceful, and respectful. They also believe in the god of the SUN as well as the earthmother.

Now... you tell me which one makes more "sense." And even then... Whatever our opinions are, they don't matter. Blizzard has already put this ball in motion. It's going to happen. It's a fact. Accept it.

There were plenty of people who bitched about the Horde getting paladins in BC. Fat lotta good that did. As far as I'm concerned, people that can't get over this are just too set in their ways and stubborn. As such, their opinions means very little in the first place.

Let me preface: I'm fine with Tauren Paladins, and I know it's going to happen. I even went so far as to reserve the name Muuther. I just think there may be a better storytelling opportunity missed here. However, I know that my understanding of the lore is limited, and Metzen may have some overarching vision that will bring everything together in the end... or he could just be like the writers of Lost and just doing what sounds cool at the ti... Oh! Shiny!

Voldiir wrote:You can believe what you like. I can believe that 2+2=5 regardless of what is right and wrong, I can still believe it. I guess that's the point of this. It's all opinion. However... I'm still going to go with Blizzard. You people argue about sweeping changes. Taurens becoming paladins is NOT sweeping. There are hints of it in their lore and more in their religion. This is why I asked if anyone bothered to read the convo in TB. The fact that that conversation exsists disproves sweeping changes. In fact, it pushed towards the notion that tauren are thinking about the light now. BEFORE the cataclysm. The cataclysm is just the last straw. That final push they needed.

As for undead... no. I'm sorry. They hate life. Anyone who has ever leveled an undead passed 20 knows this. Most of their questlines involve torturing the alliance, to painful and grievious ends. Then what? They laugh about it. Did you see the Wrathgate? They didn't just say death to the alliance... they yelled death to the living. They may have been forcefully forsaken years ago, but now they are damn proud of who they are and what they do.

To be fair, you're mixing old and new lore here.

You cite the convo in TB as evidence... did you know that convo in TB was added in that last patch after they announced Tauren were getting Paladins? The same is true of the Night Elf mage in Darnassus. Both were added to try and explain their decision to add the new classes in Cata. They're not examples of the direction lore has been heading. It would be like adding a patch where Keal Thelas is really the Lich King and making Arthas an elf and changing all existing game models and instances to match and THEN saying, 'see, that's what we planned all along!'

As for the Forsaken hating everything and all life and evil and blah blah blah. There's the whole 'Lament of the High Bourne' quest thing from TBC that shows the Forsaken to be a bunch of soft-hearted cry babies when you really get down to it. (Yes, this is hyperbole)

The Forsaken have Priests, and they have an affinity for the Blood Elves. Blizz has been steadily making the Forsaken softer (less 'evil') since TBC. And now, they've been purged of the worse of the RAS and Burning Legion as of the wrathgate (you know, those guys responsible for torturing the alliance in those early quests and the entire wrathgate fiasco?).

After the recent lore events in WotLK, and depending on what happens to the LK (the Forsaken's primary enemy) it kinda makes sense for them to look for something beyond their current goals. Now... they may just become more nasty and decide that the RAS was right and try to conquer the world. But I don't see Paladins for the Forsaken as completely unreasonable. The Forsaken have more 'Warcraft Paladin' traits than the Tauren -as of right now; there may be good stuff explaining everything in Cata (OMG, it was all just King Terenas having a bad dream!).

The BEST argument against Forsaken Paladins is Lights Hope Chapel. So long as it and what is buried beneath it stands protected as holy ground, there aren't many Paladin corpses in the Eastern kingdoms that may rise into undeath or be scourged... well, except for the scarlets maybe. Those that were available were immediately used by the LK and made into Deathknights (the four horsemen... the original four horsemen). They could change that with the cataclysm just as easily as adding a lame conversation between two cow-people in TB (there sure are lots of undead Paladins in Northrend that are about to be free of the Lich King's control...).

Voldiir wrote:Sects aside, Undead, in general, are hateful, vengeful, uncaring... and yes, forsaken. Tauren, in general, are natural, peaceful, and respectful. They also believe in the god of the SUN as well as the earthmother.

Natural
Peaceful
Respectful
These are not the traits of a Paladin in Warcraft (ok, I'll grant you respectful but it's not a necessary trait, as the Blood Knights showed us).

Hateful
Vengeful
Uncaring
These ARE traits of Paladins it Warcraft.

Viycktor wrote:

Voldiir wrote:Sects aside, Undead, in general, are hateful, vengeful, uncaring... and yes, forsaken. Tauren, in general, are natural, peaceful, and respectful. They also believe in the god of the SUN as well as the earthmother.

Natural
Peaceful
Respectful
These are not the traits of a Paladin in Warcraft (ok, I'll grant you respectful but it's not a necessary trait, as the Blood Knights showed us).

Hateful
Vengeful
Uncaring
These ARE traits of Paladins it Warcraft.

Interesting conclusion.

/necro'd and /signed

I'm sure Horde fanboys are creaming over themselves and falling over each other to reserve the name "Holycow" on every realm already.

Lore-wise, The Forsaken are a much better fit for the new paladin race. They're already in with The Light via the priest class, so why not give them paladins as well? Plus, the undead are just a cooler overall race anyway. Instead of allowing undead to be hunters (which will leave gnomes as the ONLY race that won't be able to be hunters) give them paladins.

Morlin wrote:/necro'd and /signed

I'm sure Horde fanboys are creaming over themselves and falling over each other to reserve the name "Holycow" on every realm already.

Lore-wise, The Forsaken are a much better fit for the new paladin race. They're already in with The Light via the priest class, so why not give them paladins as well? Plus, the undead are just a cooler overall race anyway. Instead of allowing undead to be hunters (which will leave gnomes as the ONLY race that won't be able to be hunters) give them paladins.

Actually, the forsaken priests do not channel light.

Snake-Aes wrote:Actually, the forsaken priests do not channel light.

And that is has been pointed out.....a bajillion times in this and other threads on this topic I believe.

TAUREN PALADINS NOW ENDORSED BY NATURE: http://www.geekologie.com/2009/12/holy_ ... ot_i_n.php