Is it me or...

Is it me or is Sunwell not a very paladin friendly instance?

I know this comes up with many raid instances but looking through the boss encounters in sunwell I see many of the old paladin tanking weaknesses appearing (again?).

Starting from lacking debuffs (demo shout/roar and stuff) at the first boss, Ardent Defender not working properly at Brutallus (because hits come too fast after another) to crushing blows + a 25% avoidance debuff getting us below kara levels in uncrushability... is there actually any advantage of bringing a paladin tank here?

(Oh, and I'm aware that it is all doable with a paladin, just hate the feeling of being subpar at everything...)

you do realise that not only us get the debuff for -25% right?

further more, bring a dps warrior for the debuffs, brutallus does not crush(need conformation on that but quite sure).

relax, you will do fine.
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you also realise this effects druids a lot worse right? I mean dodge is their only real avoidance stat. Ofc, if you feel that you have other tanks that can do the job fine let them, (but still try to get in the raid as healer or dps the drops are great, and once you see the fights a few times try them).
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yep.. thats it. without crushing blows and without our ability to mitigate every single attack via block
we just bring nothing special to the table.. why should u use a protpala on brutallus when you
have a druid (best mitigation) and a warrior (debuffs).. using a dps warrior for applying the debuffs
you aren capeable of will just hurt your raid-dps.. wich is a serious matter @ brutallus

so druids bring mitigation & extreme threat gen, warriors bring 100% save taunts and debuffs
paladins bring nothing - and this is the first encounter that makes me feel this

its not like we cant.. its just not optimal. and you absolutly wont want anything other then optimal
things @ brutallus ~ wich makes us 2nd choice
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Why does it affect druids more? That would only be the case if one would have less than 20% dodge which isn't realistic with gear being as it is.

It reduces 25% avoidance from all tanks, no matter what. The reduction is the same for all classes.

The paladin specific issue (due to low holy shield %) is that we suddenly get unblocked attacks... lowering the value of block value items quite a bit (since it's no longer effective health).

Hmmm...I wonder if that's why all the block rating in the new T6 pieces? If so, that's a crappy way to itemize for a bandaid.


...unless it's not a bandaid.....dun dun dun!
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How is a Paladin, realistically, any worse than any other tank, for Brutallus especially? I think you are looking at the numbers "on paper" and not how they work out in practice.

We take 4% more damage, on average, on Brutallus, this is true. Ardent Defender doesn't always work on him. Neither of those particularly matter, because:

a) You're getting spammed with heals so much that 4% more damage taken just means 4% less overhealing
b) *ANY* tank that gets low enough for Ardent Defender to matter is going to die

Now look at what we bring to the table. Brutallus' fast attack speed, plus being a demon = ridiculous threat gen in a DPS race encounter. Nearly all of my Holy Shield charges are used every time I cast it.

So, you've got:

Meaningless mitigation bonuses
vs
Fight-breaking DPS bonuses

I would argue that Paladins make the BEST tanks for Brutallus.
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The danger must be growing, for the rowers keep on rowing!

Tell that to my gm and raid leader....

you are in no way replying to what i said :>

i didnt say that taking 4% more than w. is an issue.. i dont even believe we do due to +armor aura

i did say that the warriors debuffs are. of cause you could make a dps warrior apply those..but
how much dps will be lost? 400? and the benefit?

u mentioned tps.. our druid does 1800 tps while the warrior does 1400. both do 50-100dps more
while tanking, the druid takes less damage than i do and the warrior applies vital debuffs. our dps
can go wild without pulling aggro

so lets assume you will loose 50dps(tank) and 300dps(warrior to apply debuffs for you).. than
paladin will become usefull when your DPS is able to do more then a protection warrior can handle
and is able to do >350dps more while you are tanking.

this may happen - but then again - why not bring a 2nd druid? :>
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