I need help figuring out when to go parry gems

For the sake of theorycrafting, there was a break even point at around 300 dodge rating, after that you get more avoidance from parry.

I'll try look it up again, I remember someone doing the math in whitetooth's post on EJ.

I have a question which I never really found a clear answer. For one particular avoidance stat, like dodge, are dodge rating, dodge from defense, and agility diminished separately?

What I mean by this, at level 70, assuming no agility, 25 agility gives 1% dodge. So if I had no dodge rating from gear, no defense skill, and no agility, 25 agility will give me 1% dodge. Now, I have 400 dodge rating, no defense, and no agility. Will 25 agility still give me 1% dodge (thus diminished separately) or will 25 agility give me a very diminished dodge because all dodge gaining stats and rating are consolidatedly diminished?
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They are all diminished the same, any additional bonus from defense/dodge rating/agility that effect dodge are diminished with increasing dodge. Anything that effects dodge other than base talents/base agility/base dodge are diminished.Same goes with parry.

The breakeven point depends on what your parry is, if you have 0 parry on top of talents(which would be 10 percent parry, impossible since you will probably have some defense), then there could be a "break even point". As a general guess, I'd say if you have around 38-40 percent dodge after diminishing returns and 15-18 percent parry after diminishing returns you will probably gain more from parry gems. But considering how extreme that difference is I would imagine, with the current gear available and the item values of dodge/parry rating, there will rarely be a point where parry is better to gem for.
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Paladin/70/Rivendare

Hi all, long time lurker, first time poster.
I was going to post this on my guilds website but
saw someone was interested in it here. If my math is wrong please post a correction but using the currently available conversions the below is what i discovered.



The implimentation of diminishing returns creates a distinct and elusive marginal benefit when considered against itemization points.

For instance a tank that is uncrittable at level 80 with 540 Defense Skill, has 2 items still to enchant, and 4 gem slots to fill. What combination of avoidance statistics will be most cost effective: Dodge: Parry? Defense Rating? Agility?



Trolling the internet i found the below information from sites such as TankSpot, Maintankadin and ElitistJerks.



At level 80 the formula for Dodge, Parry and Miss are below:

Dodge: (((DefR/4.918)*.04)+(DodgeR/39.348)+(Agility/52.084))

Parry: (((DefR/4.918)*.04)+(ParryR/49.185))

Miss: (((DefR/4.918)*.04))



The diminishing returns for these stats is believed to be thus:

DR: 1/(.011347+(.956/Dodge))

DR: 1/(.021275+(.956/Parry))

DR: 1/(.072687+(.956/Miss)



So avoidance with diminishing returns is then this:

1/(.011347+(.956/(((DefR/4.918)*.04)+(DodgeR/39.348)+(Agility/52.084))))

1/(.021275+(.956/(((DefR/4.918)*.04)+(ParryR/49.185))))

1/(.072687+(.956/(((DefR/4.918)*.04)))



Considering the itemization points from Gems in the Burning crusade, rare gems offered 8DefR, 8DodgeR, 8ParryR, or 8Agi.

Each of these stats offers avoidance at their own conversion rate, and rate of diminishing returns. For a tank to reach uncrittable at level 80 they must have 540 defense skill which is 689 Defense Rating. This adds a large chunk of avoidance from Miss, Dodge, and Parry. This 689 Defense Rating applies to the diminishing returns for miss, dodge, and parry, creating a hefty diminishing return penalty to further avoidance stats. The marginal cost of 8 more DefR, DodgeR, ParryR, or Agi is determined by the amount of avoidance it grants in relation to where current gear is. To find the cheapest marginal cost of avoidance statistics I incrimentally added the cheapest marginal avoidance statistics and recorded the outcome below.



Defense Rating to 689 for Uncritability

Dodge Rating to 642

Parry to 8

Dodge to 650

Parry to 16

Dodge to 666

Parry to 24

Dodge to 682

Parry to 32

Dodge to 690

Parry to 40

Dodge to 706

Parry to 48

Dodge to 722

Parry to 56

Dodge to 730

Parry to 64

Dodge to 746

Parry to 72

Dodge to 762

Parry to 80

Dodge to 770

Parry to 88

Dodge to 786

Parry to 96

Dodge to 802

Parry to 104

Dodge to 818

Parry to 112

Dodge to 826

Parry to 120

Dodge to 842

Parry to 128

Dodge to 858

Parry to 136

Dodge to 864

Parry to 144

Dodge to 880

Parry to 152

Dodge to 888

Defense to 697



This list generally outlines which avoidance stats tanks should aim for in relation to where they are. The best gear you have will determine what gear you wear, but this should help when it come time to determine how to gem and how to encahnt your gear, or choosing between two comparable pieces.



In general once tanks reach uncrittable they are receiving a hefty diminishing return penalty from Defense Rating. At that time it is cheapest to invset heavily into Dodge until dodge bonus is greater than 18%. Then increasing both Dodge and Parry back and forth till Dodge is at 21% and Parry is at 7%. At this point Defense Rating should be mixed into the avoidance updates with dodge and parry. Agility is never the most marginally efficient means to increase avoidance becasue at the above rate increases avoidance will not be cost effective until after a player reaches 102.4% avoidance, which is the avoidance cap, and inarguably an unnattainable number.

Dodge is king when it comes to avoidance after uncrittable is reached, diminising returns did make parry a better option in certain circumstances but a signifigant amount of defense rating and dodge rating must be stacked before parry is marginally efficient.



Also to test your current marginal cost of avoidance you can set up a spread sheet in excel like so

Actual Marginal

DefR 689 =((1/(.072687+(.956/((((DefR+10)/4.918)*.04))))+(1/(.011347+(.956/(((DefR+10)/4.918)*.04)+(DodgeR/39.348)+(Agility/52.084)))))+(1/(.021275+(.956/(((DefR+10)/4.918)*.04)+(ParryR/49.185))))))-(Sum(Miss,Dodge,Parry)

DodgeR 0 =1/(.011347+(.956/(((DefR/4.918)*.04)+((DodgeR+10)/39.348)+(Agility/52.084))))-Dodge

ParryR 0 =1/(.021275+(.956/(((DefR/4.918)*.04)+((ParryR+10)/49.185))))-Parry

Agility 0 =1/(.011347+(.956/(((DefR/4.918)*.04)+(DodgeR/39.348)+((Agility+10)/52.084))))-Dodge



Miss =1/(.072687+(.956/(((DefR/4.918)*.04)))

Dodge =1/(.011347+(.956/(((DefR/4.918)*.04)+(DodgeR/39.348)+(Agility/52.084))))

Parry =1/(.021275+(.956/(((DefR/4.918)*.04)+(ParryR/49.185))))



Enter the formulas into the cells and make sure to correctly reference the other cells.

Then enter in the Current Value of DefR, DodgeR, ParryR, Agility. It will calculate the

%Avoidance from each after diminishing returns as well as create a plus 10 marginal difference.

Whichever rating has the highest marginal difference is the most effective avoidance stat.

Is there any good reason to take strength over dodge? I know you get a little BV from it but that seems trivial compared to the avoidance.
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Well, Strength is now the primary threat stat and gives the BV, so it's threat + EH all in one package. Pretty good stat imo. It really depends on your current dodge/parry situation, though, and how necessary you think it is to have a few more % dodge.
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I have a related question to pose now...

Pretty much every serious Tankadin is investing 10 talent points for 10% total avoidance between Anticipation and Deflection. Does the avoidance added via these talents cause the avoidance gained for dodge and parry respectively to hit diminishing returns sooner, or are the diminishing returns based only on the contribution of stats granted by gear and buffs?
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It depends on what you are doing with your gear, but the dodge/stamina gem could be more valuable than a strength/stamina gem depending on what you are doing. It's a nice option.

Another issue is that no one knows where Sovereign Twilight Opals come from yet (+8 str/+12 stam). We'll be pretty much stuck with dodge anyway until someone finds it.
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