Proof God Exists

Khayne wrote:And BV can be really, really crappy. sure, mitigation is allways nice.
But if i need to choose between reducing hit by 0,5% and adding BR that goes over-cap and is fully useless, and compare that to taking 2,5% less hits overall, i'll take that "not hit at all" option thanks.

your example is horribly skewed in favor of avoidance.

before the next patch, the 39 dodge points you would need (minimum) for 1% avoidance would be roughly 76 block value which on a 19000 boss hit is 0.4% damage reduction (1% against 2.5% avoidance). After patch it will be 2% damage reduction against 2.5% avoidance. Now consider that I am giving a lot of bias to your avoidance, I am using undiminished dodge to simplify the math, if it were parry, block would win by a small margin (and it also gives you threat and EH that parry doesn't). diminishing returns act to negate the stacking bonus on avoidance, though I have no idea how effectively it does this.

so if there is somewhere after patch where you can trade straight parry for BV, do it. I can't think of any gear out currently where this is possible. we have parry+BV, dodge+armor, dodge+parry, BV+BR, dodge+BR, and dodge+hit/exp gear combinations in the ulduar gear that I can think of (off the top of my head). out of all those, dodge+armor is probably the best piece to go for. Ok I am getting off topic now

Bundy wrote:
I dont see how anyone can say BV is wasted. If its on your classes gear, its not useless. It may not be your favorite stat, but its never useless.

Khayne wrote:
That's so flawed thought i really just had to point it out.
"if it's on your classes gear, it's not useless"?

So holy paladins should really love their mp5 right now before patch, even if it does give them less crit and int (so less mana-regen, throughput, and less max resources)?

Re-read the bold. Unless they decide to put int/sp/spr on warrior gear, pretty much any other stat is put to use in some way. It may not be your first or even second choice but its still put to use. And if something is being put to use, by defenition it is not useless. As of right now, they do not put any useless stats on class gear. If your tanking, BV makes you take less damage and produce more threat via shield slams or what have you. Last I checked, taking less damage and producing more threat is what tanks do.

What if all additional BV on gear was free? All the item points are used before counting the BV. Would it still be useless then?

Majiben wrote:It's a PVP buff if you run with high level PvE BV gear.

Sorry, I meant the reduction in block coefficient might be in order to balance PvP, so that prot pallies don't run around owning everyone with massive shield slams.

Ascendant wrote:before the next patch, the 39 dodge points you would need (minimum) for 1% avoidance would be roughly 76 block value which on a 19000 boss hit is 0.4% damage reduction (1% against 2.5% avoidance)

mitigation != avoidance

I'd love to have Block Rating reworked to be like "Shield Expertise" with modifications to our hit table for physical and magical damage, similar to the REALLY old THAC0 model.

The more "block rating" you acquire, the more proficient you are with a shield and the higher the likelihood you will be able to hide vital parts of your body behind your shield during magical attacks and the better you are at positioning your shield, enabling full force blows to sometimes become glancing blows dealing half damage minus block value (with that value rated into our details).

As well, I'd like block rating to modify our block value by a multiplier of sorts.

The way I see it, it would be like this:

Magical Protection when blocking = 25% reduction
Deflecting Blows = 9% chance when block is up
Base Block Value from Shield, Strength and Items = 2900
Modified Block Value = 4100
Chance to Block = 21%

One thing I see a lot of people do is say that they have X BV from gear, so their BV will only go up by X. Don't forget that it will scale with Redoubt and the BV meta, so you will actually gain 1.35 * X in BV (might be multiplicative, but this is conservative). That makes it look a little better to pick up BV vs. avoidance.

It is sad that right now BV just doesn't scale and the parts we really gear for are the hard parts where you're getting hit for 20k. A 2k block value increase is only 10% of that damage mitigated and I can almost guarantee you'll lose more than 10% of health.

I'm an EH junky, so increased BV does look interesting to me for physical bosses. It has the potential to be slightly better than straight stam on some bosses.

For over all damage reduction the avoidance is going to win unless the boss is only hitting for 10k, which means mostly gimick fights like Vezax and Loatheb.

Most people are not using the BV meta, and I'm sure most are taking redoubt into account.

Spectrum wrote:I'm an EH junky, so increased BV does look interesting to me for physical bosses. It has the potential to be slightly better than straight stam on some bosses.

Only if it takes 6 hits to kill you for EH. It's mitigation which can be supreme on fights with limited healing but there are no such fights in ulduar, General is the closest but his surges of darkness negate this some what.

Rehlachs wrote:

Ascendant wrote:before the next patch, the 39 dodge points you would need (minimum) for 1% avoidance would be roughly 76 block value which on a 19000 boss hit is 0.4% damage reduction (1% against 2.5% avoidance)

mitigation > avoidance

fixed. avoidance is damage reduction, mitigation is damage reduction and EH.

Ascendant wrote:

Rehlachs wrote:

Ascendant wrote:before the next patch, the 39 dodge points you would need (minimum) for 1% avoidance would be roughly 76 block value which on a 19000 boss hit is 0.4% damage reduction (1% against 2.5% avoidance)

mitigation > avoidance

fixed. avoidance is damage AVOIDANCE, mitigation is damage reduction and EH.

fixed

My super blockset blocks 39% of attacks, with a Base BV of aournd 1775, 2k+ with libram procced.
Even with the doubling of block value from items my BV will proly only go up to 3k or so - as its only BV thats being doubled, no extra block through the base shield block value, nor strength.

2k or 3k or even 5k from a 25k hit is still pretty feeble.

Ascendant wrote:fixed. avoidance is damage reduction, mitigation is damage reduction and EH.

/facepalm

I would like to direct you to any of the according guides on this forums to avoid unnecessary drivel.

Rehlachs wrote:

Ascendant wrote:fixed. avoidance is damage reduction, mitigation is damage reduction and EH.

/facepalm

I would like to direct you to any of the according guides on this forums to avoid unnecessary drivel.

ya know this is getting pretty insulting. the purpose of avoidance is damage reduction, changing the word doesn't make me wrong. There is nothing magical about avoidance to increase its net value over the course of a fight. 10% MITIGATION > 10% AVOIDANCE; regardless of what you want to call it, they are both damage reduction, only one is also EH. I am not about to model damage for you.

you don't have me in the best of moods with your (and not only you) latest comments. I am not sure how well they follow the posting guidelines. I have read every sticky in this forum at some point, so don't confuse me for being misinformed.

Nonetheless you are confusing terms, comparing completely different things, using indefensible calculations, and so on.

I might have sound harsh, but believe me - if I had the intention to insult you, my prior posting would have sound different.

Rehlachs wrote:Nonetheless you are confusing terms, comparing completely different things, using indefensible calculations, and so on.

The point I am making is that they are not completely different, they are comparable from a net damage reduction standpoint. Unfortunately, since mitigation happens to also provide EH, it is more expensive than avoidance and the additional EH provided is hard to use in the comparison. The final decision will be fight specific, depending on the types and magnitudes of incoming damage. That being said, guaranteed damage reduction (in equal amounts) is the better stat, simply because of its reliability.

question. If you could trade all your avoidance for an equal % of straight damage reduction, would you? The answer is pretty obvious for me. The muddy area is the "breaking point"; how much guaranteed damage reduction (mitigation) is needed to be worth trading the avoidance. It is quite clearly less than the amount of avoidance, but beyond that I really can't say.

It's not a matter of BV being better/worse than avoidance (this was already discussed in other threads), it's a matter of arguments.

You got an idea about not generalizing the whole concept, now (i.e. "depending on the encounter, etc"). For the remain, well..