Defensive Stats in WotLK (diminishing returns)

Updated 10/1 1:10 p.m.

We now have blue confirmation that avoidance stats (including miss chance from defense!) give diminishing returns.

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/threa ... sid=2000#0

Lots of research over at EJ (http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t29453-combat_ratings_level_80_a/) has given us a pretty good understanding of how dodge and parry work now. Unfortunately, data points for miss chance cannot gathered so easily, so as yet we have no formula for it.

Some points about how the formulae work that might be relevant:

• The formulae include two constants that vary by class. For the full list of relevant constants, again see the Elitist Jerks thread linked above.
• The old formulae for how to convert Dodge/Parry Rating to Dodge/Parry % still work. Diminishing returns are applied after this conversion, directly to the Dodge/Parry % numbers.
• The above means that diminishing returns are not applied separately to the contributions of different stats. For example, you will receive a diminished effect from equipping an item with +Agility even if you had 0 +Agility to start with, so long as you already have some Defense & Dodge rating.
• For low levels of Dodge/Parry Rating, you will actually have higher Dodge/Parry % than you would have before the diminishing returns formula was applied. This is not a bug, that's just how the formula works.
• Warriors, Paladins, and Death Knights all diminish at the same rate. That is, the class-dependent constants in the formula have the same values for all three classes.
• Druids' Dodge % diminishes less quickly than other tanks. For example, a pre-DR Dodge % of 25 would be roughly 20.16% after diminishing returns for a paladin, but 21.08% for druids.
• Base Dodge/Parry % are not included in the diminishing returns calculation. This includes talents like Deflection and Avoidance. Abilities that add a flat % to your avoidance (like a Rogue's Evasion) don't suffer diminishing returns, either.

And now, here are the formulae, provided in a way that should be easy to use. I have filled in the constants using the values for paladin/warrior/DK, so it can more easily be applied by the expected readers of this forum. For other classes, see the EJ thread linked above:

Real Dodge % = Base Dodge % + 1/(0.011347 + (.9560/(Character Sheet Dodge % - Base Dodge%)))

Real Parry % = Base Parry % + 1/(0.021275 + (.9560/(Character Sheet Parry % - Base Parry %)))

(An easy way to use these formulae, btw, is to copy and paste the portion after the equal sign into google, and replace "Character Sheet X %" with the relevant number taken from your character sheet. "Base X %" is your Dodge or Parry % when naked, including talents.)

Modal wrote:Now, there's a wrinkle here: the defense rating from the two items gives 19 defense skill, whereas just one gives only 9. So you're not getting the same contribution from defense with both items equipped. But actually, that means I should be getting more dodge chance from defense with both items equipped.

This part is easy to explain. Defense skill only take on integer values, and always rounds down. Each individual piece was giving you something like 9.6 defense skill, so when you equipped both you got 19 defense skill....you're not getting some quadratic/exponential benefit from defense or anything like that.

As for the rest, in prose form it's very difficult to figure out which numbers fit where. Could you post for each gear set up you tested your:

Agility
Defense Rating
Defense Skill
Dodge Rating
Dodge %
Parry Rating
Parry %
Block Rating
Block %

That'll let others much more easily help you figure out what may or may not be going on.

Right, that part I know. That wasn't meant to be new, just pointing out that even taking that into consideration the numbers don't add up. Didn't want people to think I was overlooking that.

Diminishing returns on dodge makes a lot of sense as a concept, in a similar way that diminishing returns on armor does. Both would become exponentially more powerful as you got closer towards 100%. Anyway, I'm just musing out loud, I have no idea whether it has been implemented. If it was I wonder what it would cap out at... 75%?

Sure if you like to redo the math yourself.

Naked:
Agility: 74
All ratings 0
Defense skill: 350
Dodge chance: 8.63%
Parry chance: 5.00%
Block chance: 5.00%

Only talents that should affect any of this are 5/5 Anticipation.

With Boots of Elusion (+46 stamina w/ enchant, +23 defense rating, +38 dodge rating):
Agility: 74
Defense Rating: 23
Defense Skill: 359
Dodge Rating: 38
Dodge Chance: 11.06%
Parry Rating: 0
Parry Chance: 5.38%
Block Rating: 0
Block Chance: 5.36%

With Pocketwatch & Cloak of Eternity (+36 stamina, +12 NR from cloak enchant, +23 defense rating, +38 dodge rating):
Number identical to those given above for boots

With Pocketwatch, Cloak, & Boots:
Agility: 74
Defense Rating: 46
Defense Skill: 369
Dodge Rating: 76
Dodge Chance: 13.44%
Parry Rating: 0
Parry Chance: 5.79%
Block Rating: 0
Block Chance: 5.76%

With Empyrean Tortoise only (+42 defense rating):
Agility: 74
Defense Rating: 42
Defense Skill: 367
Dodge Rating: 0
Dodge Chance: 9.35%
Parry Rating: 0
Parry Chance: 5.71%
Block Rating: 0
Block Chance: 5.68%

Full Tank Set:
Agility: 86
Defense Rating: 346
Defense Skill: 496
Dodge Rating: 147
Dodge Chance: 22.68%
Parry Rating: 5
Parry Chance: 11.32%
Block Rating: 47
Block Chance: 16.80%

Btw, in full tank gear the temporary 165 dodge rating from using my Empyrean Tortoise increases my chance to dodge by 6.99. (To 29.67% from 22.68%).

Naked except for the trinket, when I use the trinket my dodge chance goes from 9.35% to 17.61%, for an increase of 8.26.

Also noticed this as well at least a few builds back, seems this is the 1 way blizzard will reduce total avoidance levels. Should be quite effective.

Tho i've not had chance to check this out in more recent builds.

What happends when then release the content patch? Will alot of us drop below uncrushble?

Andox wrote:What happends when then release the content patch? Will alot of us drop below uncrushble?

Likely, but uncrushable will cease to be a meaningful term.

Dorvan wrote:

Andox wrote:What happends when then release the content patch? Will alot of us drop below uncrushble?

Likely, but uncrushable will cease to be a meaningful term.

Ah right, I forgot that.

Does this appear to diminish only individual stat avoidance, such that at some level of dodge it is actually better to go for parry rating?

I really can't say. I have almost no parry rating gear. On the beta forums I posted about this and so far got just one rude skeptical response about character sheet numbers being bugged, although as far as I know everything else looks right.

More testing would be nice.

In particular, if someone with the Ancient Aqir Artifcact from Zul'jin could do the following, we could answer the question whether parry/dodge diminishing returns are linked or separate.

Get naked & equip parry trinket. Note your resulting parry %.

Equip some dodge rating gear (but without parry rating). Note your parry %. Then equip parry trinket. Note new parry %. Compare change from equipping trinket w/ and w/o dodge rating.

It would be nice if the dodge rating gear didn't have defense rating also, though I know that can be hard. Maybe the badge ring & pocket watch?

Just tested this, as far as i could see amount of dodge had no effect on parry, tested it like u said above no effect.

With very little parry rating stuff I found it hard to even see if parry rating diminished, but with the 2 i had, T5 shoulders and Arifact, there was a slight tiny dip, but that could have been rounding.

Tho if parry does diminish then it means this is just for pure avoidance rating stats, defense doesn't effect it.

I tryed it with the arifact, naked at 10% parry, it gave me 0.94% parry, this is lvl 80 btw. Then i equiped my tank gear, which has zero parry rating, just the parry from defense, this time at 14% parry, it still gave me 0.94% parry

I tryed this with dodge too, but i have very little defense only gear, in 2% increase in dodge (from all my only defense gear), i had the same amount given by a dodge rating only item

Would really like some more numbers/feedback.