haste vs avoidance t14 and beyond

Puredarkness wrote:1,Is there any current or known future raids where avoidance is gonna beat haste/mastery?
2,Does heroic / normal make a difference to the viability of a build?
3,Does the new Holy Shield instead of Sacred Shield make haste build any less viable as a build?
4,With the new talent Holy Shield is avoidance catching up on haste build or is avoidance any better as a build?
5,Will 5.4 bring anymore suprises for protadins?

Theck wrote:

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■Stamina is still your best survivability stat, haste is a reasonably close second, mastery a distant third, dodge and parry tied for an even more distant fourth.

■Capping hit (7.5%) and expertise (15%) are still your most important secondary stat goals (i.e. Control comes before Haste).  It’s not clear from the data whether stamina is better or worse than hit and expertise – my guess is that stamina is better, but it should rarely come up in practice since you can’t reforge into stamina anyway.


■Control/Haste should be the default gearing strategy for pretty much everyone nowadays, augmented by as much stamina as you need to feel comfortable in the encounter.  Rule of thumb: if you keep going splat, pick up some more stamina.


fuzzygeek wrote:Gearing out a tank effectively has far more of an impact on a raid and its ability to progress than gearing one out of five or six DPS in the raid.

Fenrìr wrote:It's not just about personal DPS. If you only care about those pixels, I don't know if you're playing for the proper reasons in a guild that's progressing. Just because you're higher on DPS does not equate to you automatically getting a piece of loot. Tanks can survive with suboptimal gear with optimal play. DPS cannot do optimal DPS if their gear is suboptimal. So you can gain more of a benefit guild wise by giving it to the DPS first (but it sucks, trust me).

Just because the so called 'DPS' are doing less DPS than you, means nothing. Some of them might be doing other mechanics or dodging something that you don't necessarily have to worry about and on top of that, you generally get to be on the boss full time. You also need to remember that Vengeance (that wonderful ability that allows you to do DPS) is getting nerfed come 5.4. So no more /sit spamming, no more standing in fire or whatever else you did to try to max it out.


There's more to a raid than just you.

fuzzygeek wrote:The argument is that even if an item is perfectly itemized (haste/mast|hit|xpt), it should be passed to plate dps first since tanks have "other options" -- we can make use of dodge/parry pieces, whilst dps can not. This is a perfectly legitimate argument, and if Pure's guild made that argument I'd not think they were a blazing pile of wankers.

And in our case, it's not just about our hopped-up-on-vengeance RDPS contribution -- but also our contributions to RHPS as well, which is a nontrivial amount.

If the tank is always beating DPS on non-lol1tankstupidpaladintricks fights, then honestly your DPS needs to take a hard look at what they're doing. While our DPS can and should be competitive, you shouldn't be winning all the meters all the time.

Brokenone wrote:I think you're confused. Raid DPS is Raid DPS. It is irrelevant where the DPS comes from. Since haste scales DPS pretty linearly, if you take 200k DPS from a tank vs 150k DPS from a DPS....add some haste.... the net result is higher raid DPS when the same upgrade is given to the tank compared to the DPS.

"DPS cannot do optimal DPS if their gear is suboptimal?" What does that even mean? Tanks can't do optimal DPS if their gear is suboptimal either......

Them having to dodge stuff, me being on the boss full time, and them doing less DPS than me are all EXCELLENT reasons that giving me an equivalent upgrade is a stronger Raid DPS increase than giving it to them. I raid 25 Heroics, never sit spam (that's just a little excessive), and if Vengeance only gets tuned down to the numbers they're already talking about (50% max hp), then it will be a non-issue.

If Vengeance does see a big nerf, then DPS getting gear might be a better increase than a Tank getting it. However, currently that's not the case and I don't know how you could possibly argue that it is.

Jin - Competitive but not top
Hor - Top
Council - Top
Tortos - Depends on strat, but always top on Tortos dmg
Meg - Not usually #1, but always competitive
Jikun - Sometimes #1, sometimes just competitive
Duru - Top
Primor - Depends on strat, but Top/competitive
Animus - Top (sometimes just competitive)
Qon - Top
Twin - Depends on flame handling, but usually competitive
Lei Shen - Top

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I think you're confused. I know what raid dps is...it's an avg of all the dps added together. There is much more to a boss fight than just DPS'ing your pure little pathetic, pixel loving heart out just to parse on World of Logs...

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that also equates to adds dying, boss dying and people staying alive. I'll say that last part again...people staying alive. You, as a tank, can stay alive with suboptimal gear as well as do your job as a tank effectively...a DPS cannot.

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There are very few fights in this current tier that a DPS does not have to switch to an add that the tank can ignore and having less gear means lowering overall raid dps because they all (5-7 of them) have to spend more time on that add just because you have the assumption that your dps is the only thing that matters.

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A DPS's job in a raid is JUST as important as yours...and again, we're back to that thing I've been saying...they cannot do it with suboptimal gear. You cannot solo DPS a boss down, their adds and heal yourself. Just because they have to dodge abilities, get on adds, is NOT an excellent reason for you to get that piece over them.

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I'm an old-fashioned tank. I know that tank dps has it's place. However, you're first and foremost job is to survive. If that means taking a 522 dodge/parry piece so your DPS can get a 522 piece to replace a 496 over you're 502...then so be it. You can still stand there and eat that boss's abilities with that 502 piece and your DPS can do better DPS to kill that boss and their adds faster.

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Trust me, we are all very...VERY...much aware of how much dodge/parry sucks for us. But it's not something that is totally ignorable. It's been that way since this Expac launched and many of us knew it in PTR. BUT, it still has it's place as a minor filler.

Jin - Competitive but not top
Hor - Top
Council - Top
Tortos - Depends on strat, but always top on Tortos dmg
Meg - Not usually #1, but always competitive
Jikun - Sometimes #1, sometimes just competitive
Duru - Top
Primor - Depends on strat, but Top/competitive
Animus - Top (sometimes just competitive)
Qon - Top
Twin - Depends on flame handling, but usually competitive
Lei Shen - Top

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Jin - Gratz...standing in water with some vengeance
Hor - Gratz...solo tanking the boss means you get full up time on high vengeance stacks while your dps kill adds to further the fight.
Council - gratz...multiple mobs hitting you with good vengeance while your dps focus a single mob to further the fight
Tortos - depending on strat, gratz...you're either solo tanking with a lot of adds AND boss while your dps focus on adds to further the fight, or you're either on add duty in which isn't much different or boss duty in which...guess what...your DPS are on add duty.
Meg - /shrug...your dps need to be better and you need to stop standing in fire
ji'kun - gratz...you generally get a feather and have a high vengeance number while your dps fly around killing adds to further the fight
Duru - Gratz...you're solo tanking while your DPS are killing adds to further the fight
Primo - Gratz...you can get mutitated and do good dps due to vengeance
Animus - gratz...tank vengeance is fucking stupid here....
Qon - Gratz...again...solo tanking...
Twins - /shrug...your dps needs to be better and you probably need to stop standing in fire.
Lei Shen - gratz, you can eat decaps in melee range and /sit spam to have insane vengeance levels.

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The common thing I'm seeing here...is your DPS is on adds [u][b]~*~to further the fight so you can progress~*~[/b][/u] and you're finding ways to make your vengeance levels higher...at the expense of healer mana; because guess what...that's what it takes to make up for your higher vengeance. To me, it doesn't seem like you're much of a team player.

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You seem to have quite the insightful knowledge about how a tank's dps is the only thing that matters in a raid environment...so let's see your armory for your Ra-den achievement...here's mine: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/velen/Vanagandrr/advanced . I can 100% promise you, we did not get it just because of my dps alone...it's a collective working achievement amongst all raid members.

Fenrìr wrote:I have a problem with people who appear to only care about themselves and can't seem to grasp the concept that people care about their fellow guildmates and it's a far cry from me having a different opinion from you...it's the overly accepted view of almost every tank here. Sure, there are those people who care about tank dps...AFTER DPS's dps. Because again, we're back to the point of a tank can do their job in suboptimal gear as has been the case since what...T12? T11?.

Yes...you can do your job better with better gear...but so can a DPS and so can a healer. If you took offense or thought anything I said was a personal attack against you, then it must be true. But everything I said, can easily be applied to any single elitist tank who thinks that their dps is the sole reason for gear justification and while I did say 'you' quite a bit, it was not necessarily directed at you, even though you and I are having this conversation.

A tank getting gear over a DPS sort of stopped as Cata progressed. Sure, there was a time in which tanks and healers were the top two priorities on gear for tier pieces. Your main tank got geared out first over your off tank and your healers got the tier over the dps after the tanks because that was the time that gear did matter for a tank and you did not progress if you did not have a geared tank to stand up there and get beat on. I played a dps in Vanilla and TBC and got passed over for loot a lot. Then I swapped to tanking and now I still get passed over for loot but I don't really care. Since Cata, that has no longer been the case and I'm sorry if you're still stuck in that mind set. It took me a while as well to accept that DPS need to be able to do their job in order for us to meet enrage timers in order for me to play this game as I intend...to raid end game content. If your guild still has that Vanilla/TBC mentality, then gratz, you got a very rare guild.


Haste, as has been pointed out, does not increase survivability: it helps smooth out the heavy damage intake for slightly advanced tanks that can plan out and properly gauge holy power generation between threatening tank death boss abilities. If you want the math/theory on that, Theck has several very in-depth blog posts on it over at http://www.sacredduty.com. There is always a reason to have dodge/parry. An avoided attack is damage not taken, no matter how you want to look at it, that's survivability which is your number one reason for haste. As far as crit being the lowest stat to care about, I disagree. If you care about your DPS, then it should be higher than dodge/parry because it increases damage done.

Yes, I do tank in a 10 man environment, but there is very little difference between 10 and 25 man raiding. Sure, some fights are easier on the other difficulty and others are harder. I'm sorry if you think that a 10 man guild is not a real guild because you may think they have it easier. It's not any easier and in some ways, I find it difficult when people don't have a raid ready alt to try to help make some mechanic easier (such as having multiple warlocks for Helm of Command on Lei Shen for their gateways). Sure, any fight can be done with any raid comp, but some times, having multiples of a class just makes some things easier.

Yes, raid dps will go up if an equal gear ilvl is replaced between a tank or a dps...but well more often than not...the overall raid dps will go up if the DPS gets it over the tank because again, we're back to that new continuum of a tank can just just fine in suboptimal gear. And if you're on Lei Shen heroic, you should know this already.

Yes, I'm not denying that tank dps can be very good. Our BM destroyed everyone on Ra-den, more than doubling the number two dps. But the fact of the matter is, your way of thinking is a very rare thought in this day and age of raiding (speaking in terms of tanks getting gear over any one else first). As I have already stated, there was a time that was true, but it's not any longer.


I'm going to stop with this post and line of talking as this is a bit detrimental to the OP's question. It has been answered in 10:1 odds of 'let the dps get it first because it's overall better for the raid group' over the other arguments, and is quite well documented in that sense.

Puredarkness wrote:Our guild is currently only raiding ToT normal as we are not a hard core guild.

Brokenone wrote:I raid 25 Heroics

2) Tank swaps - if you go full bore the whole time, you're going to overthreat your cotank regardless of skill.

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/cancelaura Righteous Fury

Meyrinn wrote:2) Tank swaps - if you go full bore the whole time, you're going to overthreat your cotank regardless of skill.