3.2 Frequently *Answered* Questions - Tankadin basics

1/2 in SA will be quite sufficient, based on the maths with which you rejected Benediction. Utility from T2 you can argue 'til the cows come home, but on properly tuned encounters, you can't afford deaths anyway (look at M'uru), so speccing for them is plain stupid, and Aura Mastery is a bloody awful mitigation CD. Imp LoH isn't, but I'd say you give up too much in terms of TPS to get it.

Considering that DPS are already pushing threat, are you really going to spec out of Conviction and Crusade?

I disagree with your assement of threat. Things are not nearly to the point where we will need to pick up crusade. If it was to that point then there would be no other glove enchant option but Armsman, reckoning wouldn't be optional, accuracy would be the only weapon enchant option, BV would be the only shield option, Raids would be stacking paladins for HoSalv, etc. We are not anywhere near desperate for threat in 3.1 in general.

T2 ret talents aren't just about what is good for just your raid group. Not every raid is a 25 man and not every 25 man raid has a ret paladin or a elemental shaman. Sometimes you will go for a 8 second Effective CD on Judgement for the BV, some raid groups will benefit from Imp BoM.

On Ret vs Holy subspecs, the threat differences will be 3% on most fights. Currently Convition and SotP are in a virtual tie for threat so one would be trading crusade for Imp LoH in effect. Aura mastery only deserves the mention that it should be avoided as it is an exceedingly weak effect for effect for the price. I have a thread with some of the basic work on imp LoH and AM in advanced training.

Imp LoH and AM preliminary work (Block not worked in)

Mana use work by an EJ poster.

Imapler wrote:To take, or not to take, points in SA

Mana lost per second:

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Skill  Mana Effective Cooldown  m/s
ShoR   263   6      43,83
HotR   263   6      43,83
HS   439   9      48,78
Cons   966   9      107,3
Judg   219   9      24,3

devided them by their cooldown and added them toghter

268,04 mana lost per second



Divine plea mana per second:

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Max mana raid buffed~ 7500
DP 25% over 15s = 1875 mana
125 mana per second back from DP


BoSanct Mana per second:

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Block cap = 102,4
Swing time = 2.4s
Miss chance = 9,34

I got my miss chance by using 5+dr(GetCombatRating(CR_DEFENSE_SKILL)/122.962 = 9,34

BlockCap - Miss = BoSProc
Attacks/s * BosProc = BoSProc/S
Mana * ManaBackFromBoS * BoSProc/s

And with numbers:
102,4-9,34=93,06%
(1/2.4)*0,9306=0,38775
7000*0,38775*0,02=54,285

~54,285 mana per second back from BoSanct


Mana from Replenishment

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Mana * Replenishment = Mana back from Replenishment

7500*0,0025=18,75


Mana from JoW

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PPM / Minute = Proc per second
15/60=0,25

BaseMana * 2% = ManaReturned
4394*0,02=87,88

ManaReturned * PPS = mana back per second
87,88*0,25=21,97


How much DTPS do we need for +-0

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SA 5%
Spent 268,04
DP 125
BoSanct 54,285
Replenishment 18,75
JoW PPM 21,97

Spent - Gained = MissingMana/s
MissingMana/s / SA = DTPS

Without BoSanct
268,04-125=143,04
143,04/0,05=2860,8

With BoSanct
268,04-125-54,285=88,755
88,755/0,05=1775,1

With Replenishment, BoSanct and JoW
268,04-125-54,285-21,97-18,75=48,035
48,035/0,05=960,7


TL;DR

DTPS needed
Without BoSanct
2860,8

With BoSanct
1775,1

With BoSanct and Replenishment and JoW
960,7

Conclusion: There is no need to take more then 1 point in SA

Yes, I know. To quote myself directly:

Panzerdin wrote: Hmm. Thinking about SA. According to me/Knaughty in the anti benediction thread, it requires 1200 MP5 to keep you afloat, and DP is equal to about 500 MP5 (constantly). This means that you're going to need some mana from elsewhere. Replenishment is 75 MP5, BoS should be another 240, so you have 815 MP5 and need 1200 MP5. From that, I think it's fairly reasonable to argue that you need SA, but how much of it? You need 385 MP5 from it, so you want 20x385 in incoming damage if you have 1/2. This is equivalent to 7700 incoming damage every 5 seconds on a boss, which is a reasonable assumption. So I'm happy to recommend 1/2. Cookie cutter to http://ptr.wowhead.com/?talent=sZV0tAbuMusIufdvo0x0c perhaps? People can dig into Conviction a couple of points if they want PoJ.

Didn't intend it for you. Was just adding references for the guide.

Well, that saves me doing some maths

Re TPS:

You have 2 choices:

(1) Conviction/Crusade: Note that you may not have both maxxed out. Many people will go 3/5 Conviction, 2/2 PoJ and some will go 2/2 SA which limits you to 2/3 Crusade. Anyway, Ret sub-builds nett you a 5-8 points in effective TPS talents.

(2) Imp LoH: Still gets you 5/5 SotP. IE: 5 points in an effective TPS talent.

The difference between 5 points in Conviction/Crusade and 5 in SotP is marginal at best. Last time I checked, Crusade > SotP > Conviction, which means even if you're 8 points into option 1, you still less than 3% ahead on TPS if you go 18 Ret.

Anyway, my maths says you've only got 2 points available in Holy Tier-3: 12/53/6 + glyphs - Ultimate CDs build. 2/2 Imp LoH
• +50% armor for 15 secs every 11 mins.
• -20% all damage received, 10 secs, 2 min CD (-20% threat)

You're trading ~3% TPS for the LoH CD. Good trade? I don;t know yet, tell you after I try Ulduar hard.

Conviction is better than SotP, according to the Matlab.

Panzerdin wrote:Conviction is better than SotP, according to the Matlab.

DPS, not TPS, and only when in full Naxx-25 gear, right?

Nope, Conviction beats SotP once you're in full 25-man gear. Doesn't work in 3.0 since we need 58+ points in Prot.

theckhd wrote:Matlab sims complete.

Difference is under 1%, however. For all practical purposes, 5/5 Conviction and 5/5 SotP are a tie. SotP requires less filler, Conviction gives access to Crusade.

5/5 Conviction + 3/3 Crusade is ~3% ahead of 5/5 SotP.

To be honest, if you really want imp LoH, then Ret or Holy can pick it up and save you the trouble without sacrificing anything.

Panzerdin wrote:To be honest, if you really want imp LoH, then Ret or Holy can pick it up and save you the trouble without sacrificing anything.

Holy: 50+3/0/18 Last 3 points go in some mix of Imp Concentration Aura and Imp BoWis, I suppose. Picking up Imp LoH means they can't max both Concentration and BoW. OH THE HUMANITY!

Ret could spec like this: 0/18/53 = I-tank-trash-specced-ret-spec seems like an option. Sword+Board, tanking libram, DPSTank a caster or something, then pull your 2H back out once your target is dead.

But 13/5/53 seems more likely.

Thus.. 0/53/18 is looking more and more likely for prot. But to be fair, you are only losing ~3% DPS (6% vs undeadanoids) to pick up Imp LoH as prot.

On a tightly tuned DPS race, that's a hell of a lot (assuming your DPS are pushing the threat cap).

Not sure if it really belongs in a FAQ about raid main tanking, but there are mobs in some of the heroics that have an ability called "crush." Mentioning it under the crushing blows question might help by answering someone's "But how'd I get crushed?" question.

Im curious why in the possible specs you posted Divinity isnt used. 5% more healing received cant be that bad vs conviction or crusade?

Might be that i missed it somewhere that it is a lausy talent and you may slap me me little bit for that But i think it would be helpfull to mention it in your FAQ.

Tino wrote:Im curious why in the possible specs you posted Divinity isnt used. 5% more healing received cant be that bad vs conviction or crusade?

Might be that i missed it somewhere that it is a lausy talent and you may slap me me little bit for that But i think it would be helpfull to mention it in your FAQ.

Read the talent spec forum's 15 + page discussion it.

Yeah sorry just found another post about it aswell on the advanced forum. Slap me a little then

That should teach me to post be4 looking. Still might be worth mentioning in your FAQ tho.