Theck's Simcraft Thread - WoD/6.x

Those results don't reflect what I've experienced in beta testing. I'm trying to figure out why. I've tried fooling around with a versatility heavy build, mastery heavy build, and mastery/versatility build before. They couldn't hold up to the multistrike heavy build, and when I say multistrike heavy I mean 410 mastery and 0 versatility on that set, 1300 multistrike, with 10 ilvls lower than my versatility and mastery sets against a tank dummy. As a matter of fact versatility was performing so poorly for me that I started ignoring it as a beneficial stat entirely.

I wish I could give more specifics as to why the results haven't reflected my testing in beta. The introduction of all of these new stats just overly complicated everything entirely especially since they all interact with one another.

Danielspally wrote:Those results don't reflect what I've experienced in beta testing. I'm trying to figure out why. I've tried fooling around with a versatility heavy build, mastery heavy build, and mastery/versatility build before. They couldn't hold up to the multistrike heavy build

Do you have any quantitative data to support that? Also, what/how were you measuring such that the other builds "couldn't hold up?" You're not really providing much information to go with, beyond sounding like you simply want Multistrike to be the best thing ever, because reasons.

How something feels, qualitatively, is one thing; how the same thing actually performs, quantitatively, can be another altogether.

Danielspally wrote:The introduction of all of these new stats just overly complicated everything entirely especially since they all interact with one another.

In all honesty I very much welcome this new stats, juggling hit and expertise was a horrible thing, every time you changed a bit of gear you were forced to rebalance everything; now we finally have something in place where once you acquire a new piece of gear you fix it, equip it and forget about it forever, or at least until you vendor it for an upgrade.

an also basically the stats are still so close, if you have a piece of, let's say heroic gear and you get a piece of mythic gear for the same slot, you just replace it, regardless of the secondary stats. at least it seems that way.
secondary stats only matter if you replace gear which is at the same ilvl, and in order to properly enchant, flask, food, pot and gem.

Finkum wrote:Isn't WoD crit functionally identical to MoP parry (for TMI purposes)? If it's significantly more valuable than haste, shouldn't that mean that right now, on live, prioritising parry over haste would result in a lower TMI value? Reasons this might not be true, off the top of my head:

- The level 100 talents benefit more from crit/parry rather than haste (seems unlikely).
- The move from Vengeance to Resolve devalues haste somehow.
- The strength of live EF is responsible for a large chunk of haste's current value.
- The "tank squish" increases the relative value of avoidance (plausible given that SotR will be substantially weaker, but given the strength of mastery, we should expect haste's value to improve as iLevel increases (due to mastery stacking)?)
- Some combination of the above.

It just intuitively seems weird that haste goes from being one of the best TMI stats to pretty much the worst, especially given it will receive a 5% boost from our spec affinity.

There are a few reasons, some of which you (and others) have mentioned:

• We start out with much higher haste in WoD (~20% in first tier) than we did in MoP, leading to higher HPG and higher initial SotR uptime (60%+ in the first tier is a bit insane, IMO)
• We have a LOT more health than before, bosses aren't hitting for 50% of health (this is tank squish increasing relative value of avoidance)
• SotR is weaker (both base value & mastery contribution), which significantly weakened haste (again, tank squish)
• More things can crit now in ways that matter - Sacred Shield and Seal of Insight, in particular (EF always could). Note that Shining Protector cannot crit (at least, as of my last tests), which is another factor in Multistrike's low valuation.
• I believe the parry rating -> parry percent conversion factor got a little more generous with the squish (need to double-check the math on this tho), because they expect us to have much less of it.
• Changing from Vengeance to Resolve changed the magnitude of our self-healing, which hurts haste - having huge SoI procs and EF ticks makes Haste very strong, but they're far smaller now (again, more tank squish)

So in short: the tank squish is one major factor that really hurt haste, but there are several others too.

Note that Shining Protector cannot crit (at least, as of my last tests), which is another factor in Multistrike's low valuation.

:o nice to know, that's a shame.

Yelena wrote:

Danielspally wrote:Those results don't reflect what I've experienced in beta testing. I'm trying to figure out why. I've tried fooling around with a versatility heavy build, mastery heavy build, and mastery/versatility build before. They couldn't hold up to the multistrike heavy build

Do you have any quantitative data to support that? Also, what/how were you measuring such that the other builds "couldn't hold up?" You're not really providing much information to go with, beyond sounding like you simply want Multistrike to be the best thing ever, because reasons.

How something feels, qualitatively, is one thing; how the same thing actually performs, quantitatively, can be another altogether.

The point of my post was to give an example of live experience vs. numerical data. I even followed this up by mentioning that I wish that I could provide quantitative data, but I'm unable to do so due to my inability to formulate a valid experimental construct. Numerical data in itself isn't perfect per se unless the experimental design is accurately measuring what we're looking for, which is what we're aiming for in this theorycrafting thread—an attempt to polish simc to accurately reflect the results we desire reliably and validly.

Personal experience still holds value and is still "data", especially when the data cuts out irrelevant confounding factors—which was why I provided information regarding ilvl, versatility, and mastery.

All this is to say, I'd be careful before completely dismissing personal experience vs. simulated data. This isn't to say that I'm free from the influence of bias, though I don't care which stat actually ends up being most beneficial.

Moreover, I didn't just provide useless data coupled with the results being "couldn't hold up"; I provided information that's a conglomerate combination of results from many, many attempts with specified stat allocation, though it wasn't super detailed.

Is this data "limited"? Yes. Is this data "useless"? No.

degre wrote:

Danielspally wrote:The introduction of all of these new stats just overly complicated everything entirely especially since they all interact with one another.

In all honesty I very much welcome this new stats, juggling hit and expertise was a horrible thing, every time you changed a bit of gear you were forced to rebalance everything; now we finally have something in place where once you acquire a new piece of gear you fix it, equip it and forget about it forever, or at least until you vendor it for an upgrade.

These stats are a nightmare for bleeding edge progression guilds. The RNG nature of loot drops and gearing order are extremely important factors in increasing the success rate for progression. It's been nigh impossible to disambiguate what would be most ideal for gearing tanks first vs. DPS. For example, I probably won't be taking haste gear away from any ret pallies. I think it's safe to say that haste doesn't seem to be too desirable for prot pallies for this first tier, whereas haste is still important for ret pallies.

But then, a mastery/versatility piece drops. Ret attunement is mastery. Would I, as a tank, benefit more than the dps for this piece? According to the recent data, yes. A bonus armor/mastery trinket drops. Should I take this trinket over a guardian druid? I'd argue no. Mastery is considered the best stat for guardian druids, followed by haste. We're still in the nascent phases of figuring out the most optimal route for prot pally tanking, and considering that we're still in the first tier with an economy sized allocation of stats, aiming for ilvl is probably reliable enough for progression loot distribution.

Danielspally wrote:

degre wrote:

Danielspally wrote:The introduction of all of these new stats just overly complicated everything entirely especially since they all interact with one another.

In all honesty I very much welcome this new stats, juggling hit and expertise was a horrible thing, every time you changed a bit of gear you were forced to rebalance everything; now we finally have something in place where once you acquire a new piece of gear you fix it, equip it and forget about it forever, or at least until you vendor it for an upgrade.

These stats are a nightmare for bleeding edge progression guilds. The RNG nature of loot drops and gearing order are extremely important factors in increasing the success rate for progression. It's been nigh impossible to disambiguate what would be most ideal for gearing tanks first vs. DPS. For example, I probably won't be taking haste gear away from any ret pallies. I think it's safe to say that haste doesn't seem to be too desirable for prot pallies for this first tier, whereas haste is still important for ret pallies.

But then, a mastery/versatility piece drops. Ret attunement is mastery. Would I, as a tank, benefit more than the dps for this piece? According to the recent data, yes. A bonus armor/mastery trinket drops. Should I take this trinket over a guardian druid? I'd argue no. Mastery is considered the best stat for guardian druids, followed by haste. We're still in the nascent phases of figuring out the most optimal route for prot pally tanking, and considering that we're still in the first tier with an economy sized allocation of stats, aiming for ilvl is probably reliable enough for progression loot distribution.

You forgot healers, now plate is valid to all spec as strength and intellect interchange depending on the spec ;)

Being that the secondary are secondary, the answer is simply "where is most needed". Your tank takes too much damage? Your healers can't keep up? You lack DPS and reach the enrage?

Also, consider that having squished the loot tables means you'll see that stuff more often and, hopefully, RNG won't be as bad.

Good point regarding the healers. Secondaries, unfortunately, don't seem to be secondary in terms of improving performance. The "where is most needed" approach is easy to go by when you aren't in a competition rush. When you're in a competition rush, the order of distribution for min/maxing is just as important as trying to figure out what secondaries are most beneficial for your spec.

But then again, this is only the first tier so it wont have as much an impact I suppose.

Okay, I have some data experimenting with the recent TMI results. I'll run more logs later but this is just one example.

Mastery build trial:


http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/MCR ... pe=summary

Stats
Spell power: 6602
Armor: 3481
Bonus Armor: 624
Crit: 16.25% (688)
Haste: 13.17% (778)
Mastery: 24.25% (1787)
Multistrike: 13.33% (550)
Versatility: 3.78% (102)

Dodge: 5% (0)
Parry: 23.47% (688)
Block: 31.15%

Item level: 657

Mastery build trial:


http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/MCR ... pe=summary

Stats
Spell power: 5945
Armor: 3406
Bonus Armor: 592
Crit: 16.39% (703)
Haste: 13.10% (771)
Mastery: 16.74% (961)
Multistrike: 24.68% (1299)
Versatility: 3.00% (0)

Dodge: 5% (0)
Parry: 22.65% (703)
Block: 24.78%

Item level: 651

**The multistrike trial was cut short because I did not have LoH available to use after having spent it during the mastery trial. CDs were not chained perfectly.

Limitations
This was only one trial and it was conducted by human performance (high variation). The gear levels are not even; the mastery build has 6 ilvls on the multistrike build, with the end result being a difference of almost 700 spell power. The multistrike attempt was cut 40 seconds short due to not having Lay on Hands available.

Results
The mastery build resulted in lower damage taken but less DPS and healing than multistrike.

Conclusions
Given that multistrike was 6ilvls behind, yet still pulled ahead in DPS, we can safely suggest that multistrike may have greater DPS value than mastery. Multistrike also pulls ahead in HPS.

I'll be running more trials in the near future.

theckhd wrote:Stack enough of your attunement stat - say haste - and crit and mastery will eclipse it just because of the multiplicative nature.

So perhaps this is a silly question, but could this also be part of what's happening with haste being ranked so poorly? The default gear set is fully enchanted for haste, totaling 1433 haste from gear/enchants. That's compared to 220 versatility, 622 multistrike, 666 crit, and 758 mastery. In addition we're using a weapon enchant that procs 1000 addition haste (declining by 100 haste every 2 seconds for 20 seconds). If we used a gear set that more emphasized mastery/versatility, since those tend to be the top 2 stats, how greatly would that affect stat weights?

Also, I would guess that our tier bonuses, which are active in these sims, would push up the value of mastery, since both contribute to blocking. Would that be enough of an effect to bother running stat weights for those of us unlucky enough to spend an extended amount of time with no set bonuses or only the 2pc?

Danielspally wrote:Those results don't reflect what I've experienced in beta testing. I'm trying to figure out why. I've tried fooling around with a versatility heavy build, mastery heavy build, and mastery/versatility build before. They couldn't hold up to the multistrike heavy build, and when I say multistrike heavy I mean 410 mastery and 0 versatility on that set, 1300 multistrike, with 10 ilvls lower than my versatility and mastery sets against a tank dummy. As a matter of fact versatility was performing so poorly for me that I started ignoring it as a beneficial stat entirely.

I wish I could give more specifics as to why the results haven't reflected my testing in beta. The introduction of all of these new stats just overly complicated everything entirely especially since they all interact with one another.

When you say Beta-testing, what circumstances do you mean? Where does it feel like Multi-strike is the strongest? Raid-testing? 5-mans? Questing?

The reason I ask is that Multistrike is actually quite powerful in circumstances where you (and your healers) end up with minimal OH for whatever reason. It buffs our self-healing substantially. Each 1% buffs our self-healing by ~0.9% (about as much as Haste or Crit will buff it by, and in more efficient fashion than Crit, but less so than Haste) plus it buffs our incoming healing by ~0.45%. If you were doing raid-testing, I'm curious how much OH% you were seeing because that would affect Multi-strike's value considerably.

Fundus wrote:

theckhd wrote:Stack enough of your attunement stat - say haste - and crit and mastery will eclipse it just because of the multiplicative nature.

So perhaps this is a silly question, but could this also be part of what's happening with haste being ranked so poorly? The default gear set is fully enchanted for haste, totaling 1433 haste from gear/enchants. That's compared to 220 versatility, 622 multistrike, 666 crit, and 758 mastery. In addition we're using a weapon enchant that procs 1000 addition haste (declining by 100 haste every 2 seconds for 20 seconds). If we used a gear set that more emphasized mastery/versatility, since those tend to be the top 2 stats, how greatly would that affect stat weights?

Yes, it's entirely possible that it's partly due to the default gear setup. Or rather, I think that's exacerbating the problem. I still think that haste is going to be weaker than intended due to the swath of nerfs to different mechanics that caused haste to be strong in MoP in the first place. But stacking lots of it would obviously devalue it further. One of the sets of trials I want to run (if nobody beats me to it) is trying a few different gear sets (heavy mastery, heavy multistrike, etc.) to see how the stat weights vary. Unfortunately, stat weights are very time intensive, so I'd probably have to settle for running it on a very limited talent spread (i.e. maybe just SS_SW_HolyS for example).

Fundus wrote:Also, I would guess that our tier bonuses, which are active in these sims, would push up the value of mastery, since both contribute to blocking. Would that be enough of an effect to bother running stat weights for those of us unlucky enough to spend an extended amount of time with no set bonuses or only the 2pc?

Yup, turning those off is fairly easy though. There's a syntax (which I can't remember and have to look up) for overriding set bonuses.

So I've also been working on improvements to the MaxDPS APL. Unfortunately my computer crashed overnight, so I got a bit behind and had to re-run some of the pertinent results. I'm hoping I didn't leave out anything important, but feel free to suggest, contribute, and edit any of this.

When going for max dps one of the first things I noticed, which was happening in the sim and I confirmed on beta: we actually seem to get more AP (and hence DPS) from the Draenic Armor Potion (1500 armor for 25 sec) than from the Draenic Strength Potion (1000 str for 25 sec). I don't know if this is final or if the armor pots are bugged on beta, but I'm using the armor pots over the str ones for these sims.

This is all using the default gear set and boss setup. All the runs also use alabaster shield, focused shield, and final wrath glyphs. I started with a talent build of SS, SW, LH, and Sera (0032222). I later added ES and EmpS_DPS for comparison, which you'll see at the end. The first oddity I ran into is that the MaxDPS APL was horribly under-performing for Seraphim (about 4500 DPS less) compared to the default APL. The comparison between just those two APLs is one of the sim runs I lost, but I recreated it in the last sim I re-ran with "SS_SW_Sera_MaxDPS_Orig." It makes some sense, since before this we were primarily using the MaxDPS APL for EmpS when twisting SoT and SoR, so it wasn't optimized for Seraphim. I didn't see one obvious factor leading to this, so I decided to start from the default APL (copied into the MaxDPS APL) and then slowly re-add the modifications, keeping only those that increased DPS. I even left in the damage reduction CDs, because I figured that those didn't affect DPS (except EF, which I'm not using in these runs). First re-run is below (this time with embedded results images!):

DPS Run 1:

Full Report
Input Profile
At this point the MaxDPS APL is nearly identical to the default APL with two exceptions. First, I've changed the seal twisting back to the highest dps (CS-AS)>TRd>(HoW-TRe) configuration, not the three seal one used in the default APL. Second, the first SotR line had "incoming_damage_1500ms>=health.max*0.3" replaced with "talent.holy_avenger.enabled&holy_power>=3" since we're not concerned with incoming damage but might want to use this for HA at some point.

The other ques here list what I put on top of the MaxDPS APL. Putting HW with final wrath glyphed on top did improve dps, but HW>All with SW talented was better, and HW>All during Sera with SW talented was better still. Then of course doing nothing but switching to SoT is an even bigger DPS increase.

DPS Run 2:

Full Report
Input Profile
All the MaxDPS ques in this run use SoT with SS, SW, LH, and Sera (0032222), except the two top ques with ES talented, meaning ES is beating LH for single target DPS as we'd expect. Speaking of ES, when using it, I was getting it as a DPS decrease to move it to top priority (ES>All) compared to keeping it at it's default location. In addition, "HW>All during Seraphim only" is beating "HW>All during Seraphim or during last 20% with FW glyph." The difference is pretty narrow but repeatable, so I kept it for the next round...

DPS Run 3:

Full Report
Input Profile
So we've still got the default APL, and MaxDPS using SoT, but now we've combined the winners from the previous run to create a MaxDPS APL with SoT, ES in default priority, and "HW>All during Seraphim only". We add to that two new contenders, one with "eSS" which uses SS only during empty GCDs, and one with "ES<HPG" where we've again moved ES up in priority but kept it behind HoPo generators. Both of these changes show some mild improvements over the previous winners, so we'll keep them and combined them in the final run...

DPS Run 4:

Full Report
Input Profile
Many many APL variants this time. I re-ran some of the previous steps from along the way to try and make sure that nothing appeared amiss. I'll also mention this is where I thought to add back in the original MaxDPS APL when using SS, SW, LH, and Sera. As I mentioned at the beginning it's quite low, about 4500 dps below the default APL using the same talents. Also included are the default APL using SoT ("T" at the end) and the MaxDPS APL using SoT and the same talents, winning slightly on DPS. From there we add all the optimizations coming to the highest DPS using the MaxDPS APL with HW top priority during Sera, ES just under HPG, and SS only during empty GCDs. For further review I'm posting that APL here:

Code: Select all

actions.max_dps=potion,name=draenic_armor,if=buff.holy_avenger.react|buff.bloodlust.react|target.time_to_die<=60
# This section covers off-GCD spells.
actions.max_dps+=/holy_avenger
actions.max_dps+=/seraphim
actions.max_dps+=/divine_protection,if=time<5|!talent.seraphim.enabled|(buff.seraphim.down&cooldown.seraphim.remains>5)
actions.max_dps+=/guardian_of_ancient_kings,if=time<5|(buff.holy_avenger.down&buff.shield_of_the_righteous.down&buff.divine_protection.down)
actions.max_dps+=/ardent_defender,if=time<5|(buff.holy_avenger.down&buff.shield_of_the_righteous.down&buff.divine_protection.down&buff.guardian_of_ancient_kings.down)
actions.max_dps+=/eternal_flame,if=buff.eternal_flame.remains<2&buff.bastion_of_glory.react>2&(holy_power>=3|buff.divine_purpose.react|buff.bastion_of_power.react)
actions.max_dps+=/eternal_flame,if=buff.bastion_of_power.react&buff.bastion_of_glory.react>=5
actions.max_dps+=/shield_of_the_righteous,if=(holy_power>=5|buff.divine_purpose.react|(talent.holy_avenger.enabled&holy_power>=3))&(!talent.seraphim.enabled|cooldown.seraphim.remains>5)
actions.max_dps+=/shield_of_the_righteous,if=buff.holy_avenger.remains>time_to_hpg&(!talent.seraphim.enabled|cooldown.seraphim.remains>time_to_hpg)
# GCD-bound spells start here
actions.max_dps+=/avengers_shield,if=buff.grand_crusader.react&active_enemies>1
actions.max_dps+=/hammer_of_the_righteous,if=active_enemies>=3
actions.max_dps+=/holy_wrath,if=talent.sanctified_wrath.enabled&buff.seraphim.react
actions.max_dps+=/crusader_strike
actions.max_dps+=/judgment
actions.max_dps+=/avengers_shield,if=active_enemies>1
actions.max_dps+=/holy_wrath,if=talent.sanctified_wrath.enabled
actions.max_dps+=/avengers_shield,if=buff.grand_crusader.react
actions.max_dps+=/execution_sentence
actions.max_dps+=/holy_wrath,if=glyph.final_wrath.enabled&target.health.pct<=20
actions.max_dps+=/avengers_shield
actions.max_dps+=/seal_of_truth,if=talent.empowered_seals.enabled&!seal.truth&buff.maraads_truth.remains<cooldown.judgment.remains
actions.max_dps+=/seal_of_righteousness,if=talent.empowered_seals.enabled&!seal.righteousness&buff.maraads_truth.remains>cooldown.judgment.remains&buff.liadrins_righteousness.down
actions.max_dps+=/lights_hammer
actions.max_dps+=/holy_prism
actions.max_dps+=/consecration,if=target.debuff.flying.down&active_enemies>=3
actions.max_dps+=/hammer_of_wrath
actions.max_dps+=/consecration,if=target.debuff.flying.down
actions.max_dps+=/holy_wrath
actions.max_dps+=/seal_of_truth,if=talent.empowered_seals.enabled&!seal.truth&buff.maraads_truth.remains<buff.liadrins_righteousness.remains
actions.max_dps+=/seal_of_righteousness,if=talent.empowered_seals.enabled&!seal.righteousness&buff.liadrins_righteousness.remains<buff.maraads_truth.remains
actions.max_dps+=/sacred_shield
actions.max_dps+=/flash_of_light,if=talent.selfless_healer.enabled&buff.selfless_healer.stack>=3

Though most of the focus of this optimization was on a SS/SW/Sera combination, I added back in the EmpS MaxDPS APL here, as well as one using all the pertinent optimizations that improved the Sera APL. It's possible that there's additional optimizations for this APL using EmpS, but if I compare back, both of these (MaxDPS_EmpS and the optimized version) are ahead of the best EmpS_MaxDPS results I see in Theck's previous sims (using the same gear). At least that means I haven't made EmpS worse in the process of optimizing Sera, hehe. Also, ignore the "T" in the EmpS lines' names, I just realized that was left in the name on accident. Those APLs are still twisting SoT and SoR.

The only other oddity I notice, looking back at my own results, is that the TMIs all jumped up slightly in that last run. Even the default APL, which was consistently 112.1k TMI jumped up to 114k TMI in the last set of results. The DPS numbers similar seem within reason between runs, but it's still odd that the TMI would be off by that much, even though I ran these all back to back.

TLDR: I tried to optimize the MaxDPS APL for SS/SW/Sera and slightly for EmpS. Seraphim using SoT is beating EmpS twisting SoT and SoR in my sims, but there's probably more than can be done to optimize EmpS. Please feel free to take anything useful from this MaxDPS APL or add anything to it you like, but this is the max DPS I've been able to sim so far using this gear set and boss.

Nice work, I'll code that into SimC later today. Though I do think it's curious that Seraphim is beating Empowered Seals - definitely not what I expected. If you have time and want to dive into optimizing it for EmpS next, I'd be curious to see what you come up with. I probably won't get time to do any of that this weekend (too much 6.0.2 stuff to do).

Oh, also, forgot to mention:

Code: Select all

actions.max_dps+=/shield_of_the_righteous,if=(holy_power>=5|buff.divine_purpose.react|(talent.holy_avenger.enabled&holy_power>=3))&(!talent.seraphim.enabled|cooldown.seraphim.remains>5)

The "holy_power>=3" conditional you added there isn't needed, because you can't cast SotR if you have less than 3 HP (no divine purpose procs if you've talented HA). So that can be simplified to

Code: Select all

actions.max_dps+=/shield_of_the_righteous,if=(holy_power>=5|buff.divine_purpose.react|talent.holy_avenger.enabled)&(!talent.seraphim.enabled|cooldown.seraphim.remains>5)

Also, in case they're useful (I think you already have these, based on what I got out of your post, but others may not), here are the APL's I was using for EmpS_DPS and EmpS_SURV in the talent comparison:

APL_dpsES.simc:

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# Executed before combat begins. Accepts non-harmful actions only.

actions.precombat=flask,type=greater_draenic_stamina_flask
actions.precombat+=/food,type=talador_surf_and_turf
actions.precombat+=/blessing_of_kings,if=(!aura.str_agi_int.up)&(aura.mastery.up)
actions.precombat+=/blessing_of_might,if=!aura.mastery.up
actions.precombat+=/seal_of_truth
actions.precombat+=/sacred_shield
# Snapshot raid buffed stats before combat begins and pre-potting is done.
actions.precombat+=/snapshot_stats
actions.precombat+=/potion,name=draenic_armor

# Executed every time the actor is available.

actions=/auto_attack
actions+=/speed_of_light,if=movement.remains>1
actions+=/blood_fury
actions+=/berserking
actions+=/arcane_torrent
actions+=/potion,name=draenic_armor,if=buff.shield_of_the_righteous.down&buff.seraphim.down&buff.divine_protection.down&buff.guardian_of_ancient_kings.down&buff.ardent_defender.down
# This section covers off-GCD spells.
actions+=/holy_avenger
actions+=/seraphim
actions+=/divine_protection,if=time<5|!talent.seraphim.enabled|(buff.seraphim.down&cooldown.seraphim.remains>5)
actions+=/guardian_of_ancient_kings,if=time<5|(buff.holy_avenger.down&buff.shield_of_the_righteous.down&buff.divine_protection.down)
actions+=/ardent_defender,if=time<5|(buff.holy_avenger.down&buff.shield_of_the_righteous.down&buff.divine_protection.down&buff.guardian_of_ancient_kings.down)
actions+=/eternal_flame,if=buff.eternal_flame.remains<2&buff.bastion_of_glory.react>2&(holy_power>=3|buff.divine_purpose.react|buff.bastion_of_power.react)
actions+=/eternal_flame,if=buff.bastion_of_power.react&buff.bastion_of_glory.react>=5
actions+=/shield_of_the_righteous,if=(holy_power>=5|buff.divine_purpose.react|incoming_damage_1500ms>=health.max*0.3)&(!talent.seraphim.enabled|cooldown.seraphim.remains>5)
actions+=/shield_of_the_righteous,if=buff.holy_avenger.remains>time_to_hpg&(!talent.seraphim.enabled|cooldown.seraphim.remains>time_to_hpg)
# GCD-bound spells start here
actions+=/avengers_shield,if=buff.grand_crusader.react&active_enemies>1
actions+=/hammer_of_the_righteous,if=active_enemies>=3
actions+=/crusader_strike
actions+=/judgment
actions+=/avengers_shield,if=active_enemies>1
actions+=/holy_wrath,if=talent.sanctified_wrath.enabled
actions+=/avengers_shield,if=buff.grand_crusader.react
actions+=/sacred_shield,if=target.dot.sacred_shield.remains<2
actions+=/holy_wrath,if=glyph.final_wrath.enabled&target.health.pct<=20
actions+=/avengers_shield
actions+=/seal_of_truth,if=talent.empowered_seals.enabled&!seal.truth&buff.maraads_truth.remains<cooldown.judgment.remains
actions+=/seal_of_righteousness,if=talent.empowered_seals.enabled&!seal.righteousness&buff.maraads_truth.remains>cooldown.judgment.remains&buff.liadrins_righteousness.down
actions+=/lights_hammer
actions+=/holy_prism
actions+=/consecration,if=target.debuff.flying.down&active_enemies>=3
actions+=/execution_sentence
actions+=/hammer_of_wrath
actions+=/sacred_shield,if=target.dot.sacred_shield.remains<8
actions+=/consecration,if=target.debuff.flying.down
actions+=/holy_wrath
actions+=/seal_of_truth,if=talent.empowered_seals.enabled&!seal.truth&buff.maraads_truth.remains<buff.liadrins_righteousness.remains
actions+=/seal_of_righteousness,if=talent.empowered_seals.enabled&!seal.righteousness&buff.liadrins_righteousness.remains<buff.maraads_truth.remains
actions+=/sacred_shield
actions+=/flash_of_light,if=talent.selfless_healer.enabled&buff.selfless_healer.stack>=3


APL_survES.simc

Code: Select all

# Executed before combat begins. Accepts non-harmful actions only.

actions.precombat=flask,type=greater_draenic_stamina_flask
actions.precombat+=/food,type=talador_surf_and_turf
actions.precombat+=/blessing_of_kings,if=(!aura.str_agi_int.up)&(aura.mastery.up)
actions.precombat+=/blessing_of_might,if=!aura.mastery.up
actions.precombat+=/seal_of_insight
actions.precombat+=/sacred_shield
# Snapshot raid buffed stats before combat begins and pre-potting is done.
actions.precombat+=/snapshot_stats
actions.precombat+=/potion,name=draenic_armor

# Executed every time the actor is available.

actions=/auto_attack
actions+=/speed_of_light,if=movement.remains>1
actions+=/blood_fury
actions+=/berserking
actions+=/arcane_torrent
actions+=/potion,name=draenic_armor,if=buff.shield_of_the_righteous.down&buff.seraphim.down&buff.divine_protection.down&buff.guardian_of_ancient_kings.down&buff.ardent_defender.down
# Standard survival priority list starts here
# This section covers off-GCD spells.
actions+=/holy_avenger
actions+=/seraphim
actions+=/divine_protection,if=time<5|!talent.seraphim.enabled|(buff.seraphim.down&cooldown.seraphim.remains>5)
actions+=/guardian_of_ancient_kings,if=time<5|(buff.holy_avenger.down&buff.shield_of_the_righteous.down&buff.divine_protection.down)
actions+=/ardent_defender,if=time<5|(buff.holy_avenger.down&buff.shield_of_the_righteous.down&buff.divine_protection.down&buff.guardian_of_ancient_kings.down)
actions+=/eternal_flame,if=buff.eternal_flame.remains<2&buff.bastion_of_glory.react>2&(holy_power>=3|buff.divine_purpose.react|buff.bastion_of_power.react)
actions+=/eternal_flame,if=buff.bastion_of_power.react&buff.bastion_of_glory.react>=5
actions+=/shield_of_the_righteous,if=(holy_power>=5|buff.divine_purpose.react|incoming_damage_1500ms>=health.max*0.3)&(!talent.seraphim.enabled|cooldown.seraphim.remains>5)
actions+=/shield_of_the_righteous,if=buff.holy_avenger.remains>time_to_hpg&(!talent.seraphim.enabled|cooldown.seraphim.remains>time_to_hpg)
# GCD-bound spells start here
actions+=/avengers_shield,if=buff.grand_crusader.react&active_enemies>1
actions+=/hammer_of_the_righteous,if=active_enemies>=3
actions+=/crusader_strike
actions+=/judgment
actions+=/avengers_shield,if=active_enemies>1
actions+=/holy_wrath,if=talent.sanctified_wrath.enabled
actions+=/avengers_shield,if=buff.grand_crusader.react
actions+=/sacred_shield,if=target.dot.sacred_shield.remains<2
actions+=/holy_wrath,if=glyph.final_wrath.enabled&target.health.pct<=20
actions+=/avengers_shield
actions+=/lights_hammer
actions+=/holy_prism
actions+=/consecration,if=target.debuff.flying.down&active_enemies>=3
actions+=/execution_sentence
actions+=/hammer_of_wrath
actions+=/sacred_shield,if=target.dot.sacred_shield.remains<8
actions+=/consecration,if=target.debuff.flying.down
actions+=/holy_wrath
actions+=/sacred_shield
actions+=/flash_of_light,if=talent.selfless_healer.enabled&buff.selfless_healer.stack>=3


Also, I think it's probably fair to say that I should have put "&!glyph.focused_shield.enabled" on the two Avenger's Shield lines that use "active_enemies>1" conditionals. We still need to do a little testing to figure out how AS gets valued with and without FS glyphed.

Regarding the question of stat weights, and how gear sets affect them:

Blizzhoof (from EJ/twitter) put together some Highmaul gear sets for us to simulate progression before the tier bonuses are available. He also went very mastery-heavy with them based on our earlier feedback about mastery being awesome. I ran these through a quick Gear Comparison sim this morning to see whether that would give us different stat weights. I chose SS+SW+HolyS, which should slightly favor mastery due to Holy Shield, if you recall. Here are the results.

Gear sets: http://pastebin.com/T3z5q17e#
Sim results: https://www.dropbox.com/s/rjn38xjfcul9x ... .html?dl=0


Pre-Raid Highmaul gear & SW:


Normal Highmaul gear & SW:


Heroic Highmaul gear & SW:


Mythic Highmaul gear & SW


Haste is still performing poorly here, even though the gear set is clearly pushing Mastery. That said, it's far more competitive in some of these gear sets than it was with tier gear (which also should favor mastery).

One possible thing to investigate, if I get time, is how the scale delta affects this. I've seen weird behavior in haste reforge plots before, so I'm wondering if there's some sort of plateau we're hitting that's causing the under-valuation. That will be most easily seen with a e.g. mastery/haste reforge plot. I'll try to queue one up some time today.

Curious corollary: Haste still kicks ass at L90:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/b0vu434dpqg3y ... .html?dl=0


This is the default T16H profile in SimC, with slight modifications. It was getting a very low haste valuation, and then I noticed it was at a whopping 57% haste because the squish actually made the rating conversion for haste more generous at L90 (sadly, not true at L100!). Swapping a bunch of haste gems into crit to bring the profile down to ~43% haste gave the results above. Eventually I settled on mastery gems in those slots for the final T16H profile.

Once you get up closer to 50% haste, the stat weight obviously starts dropping off as we go over cap. But at least at L90, our priorities still appear to be
Haste > Mastery / BonusArmor > Vers > Crit > Multi

Uh.. very curious how in Normal Highmaul gear & SW Haste picks up and then drop again... can you think of any reason why that would be?

IMO some of that is nonlinearity in the haste progression. The default scale deltas are only 183, which is small enough that a local plateau (or spike) could have an anomalously large effect.

I've recalibrated the default stat deltas today to be 3.5% haste rather than 1.83% (i.e. 350 rating instead of 183), which should even some of that out, I hope. Will re-run later if I have time to see how that changes things.

Running some plot sims to see if that clears up the haste issue. These are using the T17H profile though, with various talents. 10k iterations per sim for speed's sake.

T17H default (EmpS):
https://www.dropbox.com/s/g3eaikfn0c6yi ... .html?dl=0


T17H w/ Seraphim:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/o7cc3hvyn848f ... .html?dl=0


T17H w/ HolyS:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/c5e2a7utazmyd ... .html?dl=0


Haste seems unstable enough that it's not too surprising we got noisy results. Looking at the Seraphim plot, +183 stats would put it right about on that upturn around +200 (and I'm only plotting increments of 50 stats). So depending on the exact amount of haste we started with, we may have ended up on that peak and devalued haste significantly, or started from that peak and gotten an anomalously high value for haste.

Same highmaul gear set sim, but this time with plots instead of stat weights:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/zf76137e4xp4b ... .html?dl=0

Pre-raid gear set:


Normal gear set:


Heroic gear set:


Mythic gear set:

Thanks for all of your work. It is greatly appreciated.

I'm missing something fundamental or misunderstanding something simple I'm sure. Can you speak to what changes between level 90 (6.02) and 100 that results in the dramatic shift in the value of Haste?

A few reasons. One of them is rating conversions.
1% at Level 90: haste is 20, crit/mastery is 23, versatility is 54 (mitigation)
1% at Level 100: haste is 100, crit/mastery is 110 rating, versatility is 260

So at level 90, it takes 15% more rating (3 rating) to get 1% mastery/crit as it does to get 1% haste. But at level 100, that gap shrinks to 10% (10 rating). That will increase the relative value of the other stats compared to haste. Versatility has a similar shift (but far smaller in magnitude).

A few of the other reasons that I can think of off of the top of my head:
Improved block (Draenor perk) makes mastery stronger once we get it.
All of our L90 talents favor other stats (HS buffs mastery, and EmpS/Seraphim both give large chunks of haste for "free").
T17 set bonuses also favor mastery.