AD Changes and Pally MTs

gibborim wrote:In any case, the new AD can't possibly make it to live in the current form without a bare minimum of an ICD on the damage mitigation effect. I'm willing to say that Blizz will not be giving us a 15% (or better) increase in health.

How much of a buff to paladin effective health would be required to bring them up to the level of druid effective health? The answer is roughly 15%.

So the question really is which class is at the correct power level, warriors or druids? The DK nerf and absence of warrior buffs would lead one to conclude the answer is warriors. The paladin buff and absence of druid nerfs would lead one to conclude the answer is druids. So it's hard to determine whether the new AD is overpowered until we see more changes in the patch notes.

So we get a pretty big buff to our effective health to bring us up to druids but we only have one cd, perhaps two with glyphed HoS as a 2nd one with a big drawback. We can cheat death once but only helps once in a longer crisis.

Druids have the same effective health compared to the new improved paladin tank but two cooldowns. Both of them seem weaker to me than Divine Protection, especially considering what happens if you go into AD range. And if I am not gravely mistaken we have more avoid.

Warriors have lower EH probably made up a bit by the new and coming change to block that profits them more. They also have two strong cds, Shied wall nearly the same as DP if glyphed and Last Stand which is weaker but still very good. Currently they also have a cd against magic with 4t8, that is probably made baseline.

DKs still have high EH, probably higher avoidance as far as I´ve heard, one strong cd against magic, one against all damage plus a weaker one in Blood with Vampiric blood and a weak one in frost.

So seems to me that we have some parity. AD works as EH increase and cd. Its automatic activation and permanent nature is justified as EH increase and the fact we have no other cd. In case where other tanks have another cd, we can only sit and pray like a good paladin that it works out with a cheat death in case where our prayers fail that hopefully buys us enough time to scream like a little girl for an external cd.

Communism has some interesting data about tank stats in 3.2 assuming perfect 3.1 gear and epic gems. Because of our superior stamina scaling, we will end up with more HP than similarly geared Warriors and DKs. Druids barely beat us in Tier armor, but crush us if they wear PVP armor. I foresee our stamina scaling being bumped down a few percent, as by the end of T9 the discrepancy will only get worse.


http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/threa ... 2692&sid=1

Warrior - Tier
50598 HP

DK - Tier
49567 HP (50687 Blood)

Paladin - Tier
51401 HP

Druid - Tier
52794 HP

Druid - PvP
59824 HP

Dantriges wrote:Warriors have lower EH probably made up a bit by the new and coming change to block that profits them more.

Please stop saying that the change to BV benefits anybody. It does not. Nobody wears BV on progression fights if they can help it. It's an utterly meaningless change for anything but trash and farming stale, harmless content.

I find it odd his warrior set up has the warrior at less HP than our warrior tanks have. Our warrior tank has well over 53k hp.

Elsie wrote:I find it odd his warrior set up has the warrior at less HP than our warrior tanks have. Our warrior tank has well over 53k hp.

I find it hard to believe that a warrior (even a Tauren) has 53k HP without epic gems in the best Ulduar items. Either Rawr is horribly bugged when it comes to calculating warrior HP, or you were looking at a Druid.

Nadir wrote:

Elsie wrote:I find it odd his warrior set up has the warrior at less HP than our warrior tanks have. Our warrior tank has well over 53k hp.

I find it hard to believe that a warrior (even a Tauren) has 53k HP without epic gems in the best Ulduar items. Either Rawr is horribly bugged when it comes to calculating warrior HP, or you were looking at a Druid.

No, Last I looked, I saw our warrior with with 52k+ HP on trash pulls. We do not run a feral druid.

Maybe he had last stand up. That could explain it.

Indeed, no way does a warrior have that much HP without last stand.

Anyway, regarding the AD change from the perspective of a paladin MT doing hardmodes right now (both in 25 and 10, although 10 man hardmodes are /faceroll other than Mimiron and YS).

I think this change is both a godsend and a curse, this change will make us a go-to tank for hardmodes like Iron Council, when on the last tank phase you can just go "its ok guys, ill just take this one, no need to use a CD" - hits that would otherwise make you cringe even with Bubble wall. It also makes my day with Thorim Hardmode - the unbalancing strike, melee combo will no longer kill us, especially towards the end when he swings like every 0.8 seconds and hits like a truck. It also has the general advantage of the 15% EH increase from AD, and general less deaths from healer fail.

HOWEVER, this seems to be Blizz's solution to our hardmode woes, but I really don't think it cuts it. We needed an actual cooldown, for when Mimiron plasma blasts you to oblivion on hardmode, or general vezax non-kite technique when he hits consistently hard for long periods. This is when this "cooldown" we have been given gives us little grace, and we will still be heavily reliant on the raid to help us with their cooldowns etc.

Overall, a change for the better - and not nearly as OP as everyone seems to think it is.

Minarva wrote:Indeed, no way does a warrior have that much HP without last stand.

Anyway, regarding the AD change from the perspective of a paladin MT doing hardmodes right now (both in 25 and 10, although 10 man hardmodes are /faceroll other than Mimiron and YS).

I think this change is both a godsend and a curse, this change will make us a go-to tank for hardmodes like Iron Council, when on the last tank phase you can just go "its ok guys, ill just take this one, no need to use a CD" - hits that would otherwise make you cringe even with Bubble wall. It also makes my day with Thorim Hardmode - the unbalancing strike, melee combo will no longer kill us, especially towards the end when he swings like every 0.8 seconds and hits like a truck. It also has the general advantage of the 15% EH increase from AD, and general less deaths from healer fail.

HOWEVER, this seems to be Blizz's solution to our hardmode woes, but I really don't think it cuts it. We needed an actual cooldown, for when Mimiron plasma blasts you to oblivion on hardmode, or general vezax non-kite technique when he hits consistently hard for long periods. This is when this "cooldown" we have been given gives us little grace, and we will still be heavily reliant on the raid to help us with their cooldowns etc.

Overall, a change for the better - and not nearly as OP as everyone seems to think it is.

I think maybe you forget the rest of AD, how it no longer has that leapfrog effect, its quite nice if i am understanding correctly, and if it makes the final cut, its like a CD you never have to use, both as the AD and the part that if would kill you, you get bumped back to 30% hp, so maybe this is like our CD in a way, but a little better from differing perspectives, either way, i love the concept.

Yes but it doesnt cut it when there is multiple high damage over a period, e.g plasma blast. Its a nice buff, but if I know blizz they will be thinking mission accomplished - when we still will need work.

If you are slow on dps you may see 3 plsamsa blasts in P1 mimiron.

1 bubble wall, 1 cheat death, and 1 external cool down doesent seem like asking much.

I agree that the new Ardent Defender's passive mitigation will be quite over powered when it can't be leapfrogged. Hopefully it stays in without an internal cooldown.

Threatco wrote:If you are slow on dps you may see 3 plsamsa blasts in P1 mimiron.

1 bubble wall, 1 cheat death, and 1 external cool down doesent seem like asking much.

For hard mode you're more than likely going to see three plasma blasts, and four if your DPS is slow. Even in 3.1 DKs need an external CD, so it seems like a fair expectation.

Threatco wrote:1 bubble wall, 1 cheat death, and 1 external cool down doesent seem like asking much.

You are missing the poster's point. The point was that the given cooldown is bad for those situations. Worse than, for example, say a 20% damage reduction for 10 seconds. Or worse than a 15% health increase for 10 seconds.

That poster is correct. But the new cooldown will be better than a 15% health increase for 10 seconds, for example, in other situations.

The cooldowns are different and have different strengths and weaknesses. I don't think it means paladins would require another new cooldown as a result, though.

I know my DK MT currently uses a Guardian Spirit to survive an Emergency Mode Plasma Blast when IBF is on cool down, but he may be chaining it with AMS. Regardless, an unleapfrogged AD may by itself be enough mitigation to prevent tank deaths on Plasma Blast.

The new Ardent Defender is hardly worse than the other cooldowns. AD procs EXACTLY when you need it, ie. when you would be otherwise killed by a blow.