ShoR testing on the PTR

Sat Jul 11, 2009 5:36 pm

ShoR testing on the PTR

I wanted to keep this in the Adv. Training forums.

Here is some data I gathered on ShoR on the PTR:

Code: Select all: Damage BV MIN MAX --------------------------- 2400 2920 2920 2413 2932 2933 2439 2956 2956 2454 2969 2970 2475 2987 2988 2521 3026 3026 2627 3103 3104 2673 3133 3134 2825 3211 3211 2978 3260 3260 3022 3269 3269 3025 3269 3270 3041 3272 3272 3087 3278 3278 3100 3278 3279 3117 3280 3280 3130 3280 3280 3155 3281 3281 3282 3280 3280

Note the oddity at 3155. I double checked both it and 3282, and those results were repeatable.

I then extracted out the block value past 2400 and also back calculated the "effective" block value of the damage done:

Code: Select all: Eff Block Value Extra BV MIN MAX ----------------------------- 0 0 0 13 12 13 39 36 36 54 49 50 75 67 68 121 106 106 227 183 184 273 213 214 425 291 291 578 340 340 622 349 349 625 349 350 641 352 352 687 358 358 700 358 359 717 360 360 730 360 360 755 361 361 882 360 360

Again, the line associated with 3155 has an oddity.

I tried using the interpolation algorithm and came up with three equations:
Ignoring last two lines: y = -0.0006x^2 + 0.9510x - 0.2712 ===> R^2 = 1
Ignoring only last line: y = -0.0006x^2 + 0.9507x - 0.2511 ===> R^2 = 1
Using all lines: y = -0.0006x^2 + 0.9360x + 0.6595 ===> R^2 = 0.9999999

y ==> effective block value
x ==> actual block value

So there are some interesting oddities.

As far as spec, I went up into protection for redoubt since I didn't have enough block value gear to get above 2400 without it, but I avoided any damage increasing talents like 1HWS or Crusade

NOTE: Some of the recorded damage values could be incomplete. I hit them for a while each time, but it could be just a really low probability of hitting the other min/max value. So there is some error there.

EDIT: Here is the chart for the "ignore last data point" fitting. Series 1 is the min values, and series 2 is the max values. I fit the min values for those equations.

toothdecaykills

Sat Jul 11, 2009 5:41 pm

Re: ShoR testing on the PTR

Similar findings were posted (albeit without the actual DATA) on the wow tanking forums.

With this, is there a way to see what the ACTUAL cap for BV is? Its unlikely any of us will hit it before we gain another 10 levels. I apologize if this somehow seems like childs play, but I'm likely to never understand how to do any of this math. I'm a security officer for a reason, the only thing I can do properly is look imposing

jere

Sat Jul 11, 2009 5:51 pm

Re: ShoR testing on the PTR

It's somewhere between 3100 and 3117. I didn't have enough granularity to find the spot where it hits 360 first.

Sabindeus

Sat Jul 11, 2009 11:54 pm

Re: ShoR testing on the PTR

So you stopped seeing extra damage between 3100 and 3117, and in the patch notes they said the maximum contribution would be at 34.5*lvl, which is 34.5*80 = 2760... which I guess is referring to damage, not BV.
3280-2760 = 520. So that works out.

Thanks for doing these tests Jere.

theckhd

Sun Jul 12, 2009 2:24 pm

Re: ShoR testing on the PTR

Just to confirm your results, here's what I got with the curve fitting tool in MATLAB for your data set, excluding the last data point:

Code: Select all: Linear model Poly2: f(x) = p1*x^2 + p2*x + p3 Coefficients (with 95% confidence bounds): p1 = -0.0006259 (-0.00063, -0.0006217) p2 = 0.9507 (0.9475, 0.9539) p3 = -0.2511 (-0.641, 0.1387) Goodness of fit: SSE: 1.906 R-square: 1 Adjusted R-square: 1 RMSE: 0.3564

and excluding the last two data points:

Code: Select all: Linear model Poly2: f(x) = p1*x^2 + p2*x + p3 Coefficients (with 95% confidence bounds): p1 = -0.0006264 (-0.000631, -0.0006218) p2 = 0.951 (0.9476, 0.9545) p3 = -0.2713 (-0.674, 0.1314) Goodness of fit: SSE: 1.834 R-square: 1 Adjusted R-square: 1 RMSE: 0.362

These agree with your model very well. From this we can infer that the intercept (p3) is zero, which makes sense intuitively as well. If we force that to zero and just fit p1 & p2, we get:

Code: Select all: Linear model Poly2: f(x) = p1*x^2 + p2*x + p3 Coefficients (with 95% confidence bounds): p1 = -0.0006245 (-0.0006282, -0.0006208) p2 = 0.9494 (0.947, 0.9518) p3 = 0 (fixed at bound) Goodness of fit: SSE: 2.108 R-square: 1 Adjusted R-square: 1 RMSE: 0.3749

I'm going to make a guess here that the exact values are p1 = -6.25e-4 and p2 = 0.95. Fixing all three values as such, we get:

Code: Select all: Linear model Poly2: f(x) = p1*x^2 + p2*x + p3 Coefficients (with 95% confidence bounds): p1 = -0.000625 (fixed at bound) p2 = 0.95 (fixed at bound) p3 = 0 (fixed at bound) Goodness of fit: SSE: 2.527 R-square: 1 Adjusted R-square: 1 RMSE: 0.3855

With these coefficients, the point when you reach the maximum would be x=-p2./(2*p1), or 760, for a total of 3160 BV from gear. The amount of added damage you get at this point is 361.

So this suggests the appropriate formula is:

Code: Select all: BV<2400 520 + block_value 3160>BV>2400 520 + 2400 + 0.95*(block_value-2400) - 6.25e-4*(block_value-2400)^2 BV>3160 520 + 2400 + 361 = 3281

<edit> added ^2 that I missed

Dread

Sun Jul 12, 2009 5:34 pm

Re: ShoR testing on the PTR

Yay math!

Majiben

Sun Jul 12, 2009 6:39 pm

Re: ShoR testing on the PTR

Dread wrote:Yay math!

jere

Sun Jul 12, 2009 8:04 pm

Re: ShoR testing on the PTR

You can always count on Theckhd for awesome stuff!

theckhd

Sun Jul 12, 2009 9:04 pm

Re: ShoR testing on the PTR

jere wrote:You can always count on Theckhd for awesome stuff!

Don't shortchange yourself, you took all the data. I just spent 10 minutes playing with cftool.

Also, I have a vested interest in knowing the formula, because I need to update the TPS simulations. I plan on re-running the stat sim and including block value as one of the independent variables, so we can see how it drops off compared to our other options.

jere

Sun Jul 12, 2009 10:08 pm

Re: ShoR testing on the PTR

Oh Theck, I think there should be a "^2" somewhere.

I.E.

Code: Select all
BV<2400 520 + block_value 3160>BV>2400 520 + 2400 + 0.95*(block_value-2400) - 6.25e-4*(block_value-2400) BV>3160 520 + 2400 + 361 = 3281

Should be

Code: Select all
BV<2400 520 + block_value 3160>BV>2400 520 + 2400 + 0.95*(block_value-2400) - 6.25e-4*(block_value-2400)^2 BV>3160 520 + 2400 + 361 = 3281

theckhd

Sun Jul 12, 2009 11:29 pm

Re: ShoR testing on the PTR

jere wrote:Oh Theck, I think there should be a "^2" somewhere.

Yup, there should be. Thanks.

Widdox

Mon Jul 13, 2009 2:50 pm

Re: ShoR testing on the PTR

Thanks Jere and Heck.

You both rock!

Garath.Gorefiend

Mon Jul 13, 2009 3:33 pm

Re: ShoR testing on the PTR

A couple of things.

First off, the BV Cap includes BV from both items and Str.

It also included BV from procs (librams and 4pce T8)

As a result, reaching the cap with a fairly standard prot build (which includes redoubt) is trivial.

Effectively, this has nerfed paladin threat fairly hard. On live, it was trivial to get 5k+ hits / 10k crits with raid buffs. On PTR, you will cap out at 3828 k / 7656k (roughly). The only buffs this will benefit from will be any % damage increasing buffs.

I was easily able to attain the cap with only self buffs on PTR (in full block gear, with self buffs and procs I reach 4.1k BV).

Effectively this means that paladin threat will only scale on about 75% of our threat abilities with raid buffs.

Redoubt now has much less value as a talent as its benefit drops as we get more block gear switching from a combined threat/mitigation talent to strictly a mitigation talent.

The change on threat from SoV does not make up the difference.

Addendum:
I was also able to demonstrate some extraneous results fooling around below the cap...occassionally, as long as my BV is slightly below the cap (2680 BV with procs) I would get unexpected results. The odd hit for 3947/crit for 7893 which is above the expected cap. The majority of hits would be as expected (3694 hit/7388 crit).
Still, no where near the results I can get on live.
5091 hit/10180 crit in full block gear (3026 BV with procs and cooldowns)
3946 hit/7892 crit in what I consider to be my normal tank gear 2346 BV with procs)

Note that either set on live gives me more threat from ShoR than I can get on PTR

Minarva

Mon Jul 13, 2009 4:17 pm

Re: ShoR testing on the PTR

Then dont wear block value gear like everyone else isn't. I sit at around 1.2k unbuffed BV, and I'm nearly in total BiS hardmode gear from 25 man, the only gear that has BV on for me are my tier gloves.
This is not a nerf for me YET because I simply don't hit that high, however it is an extremly retarded change. This makes it along with shield slam the only damaging ability to have dimishing returns - and yet we are not damage classes (it makes me wonder why dimishing returns was not added to DKs Frost strike when it was destroying the arena, or any other PvP destroying ability). It seems counter intuitive to buff block value to the point it was -ok- to have on your gear, and then nerf it so that in any real amounts it is only a mitigation stat - and an extremly poor one at that.
Another point to consider is how this will change in future content. I would imagine even if you TRIED to not get BV in T9 you would end up with a crapton of it, and heaven forbid level 90. There needs to be some sort of scaling based on itemlevel or something...don't know but it does just make the whole stat suck even more than it does now (to be honest).

Personally I hope this is just a PTR thing, because otherwise it shows how little foresight Blizzard seem to have with their own changes, and frankly seems very unproffesional (particularly if you track the changes to shield slam). Band aids to fix a band aid...no thanks.

Zalaria

Mon Jul 13, 2009 4:35 pm

Re: ShoR testing on the PTR

Minarva wrote:...
Another point to consider is how this will change in future content. I would imagine even if you TRIED to not get BV in T9 you would end up with a crapton of it, and heaven forbid level 90. There needs to be some sort of scaling based on itemlevel or something...don't know but it does just make the whole stat suck even more than it does now (to be honest).

Personally I hope this is just a PTR thing, because otherwise it shows how little foresight Blizzard seem to have with their own changes, and frankly seems very unproffesional (particularly if you track the changes to shield slam). Band aids to fix a band aid...no thanks.

Don't forget that they have some plan to clean it up that just isn't ready for 3.2. This is just a band-aid on a band-aid, while there's a miracle drug coming out that's supposed to cure it completely.
Whether it does or not... we'll see.